Author Topic: The Evil, Evil HO  (Read 3199 times)

Offline Yeager

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Re: The Evil, Evil HO
« Reply #15 on: May 15, 2009, 09:43:14 AM »
Your choice....... what were you expecting.
nothing out of the ordinary, like that crusty material that floats at the top of septic tanks........it's just always going to be there.
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Offline moot

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Re: The Evil, Evil HO
« Reply #16 on: May 15, 2009, 10:14:49 AM »
To be perfectly honest the only crust I see in here is you and Helm calling whine where there's none. It's like you guys are so obsessed with whiners you see em everywhere. I didn't even go into the discussion that happened after that fight (where whining did occur) and instead went to the real issue - better or worse gameplay.
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Offline Yeager

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Re: The Evil, Evil HO
« Reply #17 on: May 15, 2009, 10:39:16 AM »
and instead went to the real issue - better or worse gameplay.
yeah...I know the score there too. 
"If someone flips you the bird and you don't know it, does it still count?" - SLIMpkns

Offline moot

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Re: The Evil, Evil HO
« Reply #18 on: May 15, 2009, 10:40:08 AM »
Badabing!
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Offline Yeager

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Re: The Evil, Evil HO
« Reply #19 on: May 15, 2009, 10:47:38 AM »
badaboom  :rock
"If someone flips you the bird and you don't know it, does it still count?" - SLIMpkns

Offline NOT

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Re: The Evil, Evil HO
« Reply #20 on: May 15, 2009, 11:22:35 AM »
interesting, i make a comment and it gets dragged here. typical muppet BS. my gear was out for a few seconds, because i over controlled and the AC was flopping about. moot, i was under the impression we left this fight on amicable terms, i guess i was mistaken. if you have a problem with a comment i make, bring it to me.
this will be my only comment on this matter.




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AKNOT

Offline Shuffler

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Re: The Evil, Evil HO
« Reply #21 on: May 15, 2009, 11:32:04 AM »
Notta lotta not in that Aknot :) lol I didn't watch the vid so I didn't know who the other guy was nor did I care.

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Offline frosty

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Re: The Evil, Evil HO
« Reply #22 on: May 15, 2009, 11:32:25 AM »
That seemed a fair shot.

--moved rest of post to other HO thread for relevancy--
« Last Edit: May 15, 2009, 12:11:24 PM by frosty »

Offline moot

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Re: The Evil, Evil HO
« Reply #23 on: May 15, 2009, 11:34:36 AM »
interesting, i make a comment and it gets dragged here. typical muppet BS. my gear was out for a few seconds, because i over controlled and the AC was flopping about. moot, i was under the impression we left this fight on amicable terms, i guess i was mistaken. if you have a problem with a comment i make, bring it to me.
this will be my only comment on this matter.




NOT
Hehe..
1) It didnt get dragged here. I was genuinely curious of people's assessment of how fair or unfair the "HO" were, regardless of who said or did what.
2) You gears were out for more than a few seconds.
3) There's no implied animosity or whatever in the thread as I meant it. Unless you're referring to your blind muppet hate.
4) I have a problem with my cannons. Could you give me some more trigger time to shoot my taters at? I'll even let you put out your gears if having the absolutely easiest flap fighter in the game against my luftwaffle isn't enough handicap.
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Offline Sloehand

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Re: The Evil, Evil HO
« Reply #24 on: May 15, 2009, 01:40:33 PM »
Pardon me for mildly hijacking here, but this brings up a question I have had for some time and a discussion I'd like to get started.  Moot, if this is going to drag your thread way off of what you intended, just say the word and I'll start a new thread for this.

That said...  Often when HO shots are being discussed, someone will comment that trying to HO an opponent on the merge can actually provide you with an advantage on the merge that makes the fight easier to win.

I think I know what is being talked about when that is said, but would appreciate a discussion in detail on how to take advantage of another persons desire to HO.  Oh, and if you've got a good film to illustrate the concept, that would be good too.

Thanks

EDIT:  Just realized that this is in the General Discussion section rather then the Training section, so feel free to ignore this completely.  Maybe I'll start a thread there later today.

First a point of information.

An involved dogfight incurs a process the military calls the OODA Loop (Observe, Orient, Decide, Act) by both pilots.  As this loop continuously repeats for each pilot, the one who works through the loop each time a bit faster than his opponent little by little gains a significant time advantage in the engagement.

When a person merges with you at a distance and is dedicated to the HO all the way, his focus is totally on getting is gun on you and timing the right moment to pull the trigger.  Since a true HO is only a 50/50 proposition, a smart pilot uses his opponent's fixation to gain an advantage in the OODA Loop process and the subseqent maneuvers.  This is done by appearing to accept the HO, but actually planning a separation move (actually two in combination) to avoid the bandit's HO shot and open up a Lead Turn window on him.  Since the other guy is so focused on the HO, he ends up being surprised and reacts late to the unexpected maneuvers.
In effect, this disrupts his original OODA Loop sequence and requires him to revise it, but in reaction to your moves, not in initiation.  This can mean you quickly gain a half to one second advantage in your own OODA Loop against his, and of course, the resulting maneuvers you both employ. 

Specifically, as you alter your heading just slightly to gain a little lateral or vertical separation (or both) he, still focused on the HO, reacts to keep his gun on you for the shot, not thinking about what he needs to do if he misses and you pass each other.  He is locked into the HO mentality and will be slow to break out of it.  Since, you have already decided on bypassing the HO and have your Lead Turn maneuver planned, you are ahead of him timewise in the engagement. 

As you both pass each other, you start your Lead Turn while he is just starting a new OODA Loop to assess what you've done, then makes his decision how to respond and initiates his maneuver, probably about a second or more after you're already turning on him.  You have gained a significant time advantage in both the thinking process and the dogfight itself, plus you now have the initiative and can dictate the fight.

So, here's how I avoid the HO and gain a positional advantage.  At roughly 1.5K (just before he's likely to shoot) I adjust my heading slightly away from him in one direction, vertical or horizontal.  This is called going Out Of Plane with him in that one dimension.  I prefer going nose down as this causes him to nose down as well to get the shot, which increases his speed, making it harder for him to turn quickly later on.  Since I've planned for this, I'm ready to adjust throttle when I need to for my Lead Turn.

A split second after I go nose down (giving me a bit of vertical separation), I pull right (or left) and up into a half barrel roll that takes me Out Of Plane (giving me both lateral and vertical separation) with him in all dimensions and spoils his aim completely.  Only the very luckest of shots will hit me, if I've timed it right.

While doing this roll the planes pass each other, the bandit still trying to adjust to hit me in my roll, and me flashing past him and starting to go up behind him.  Before I reach the top of the half roll (and become fully inverted), I reverse my roll and pull up fully into a Lead Turn loop to come down on his 6.  Sometimes this is actually an oblique loop giving how short or long I stay in the barrel roll. 

In the mean time, he has either started to recover from his dive and subseqent maneuvers to try and hose me as I passed, and is now (very late) trying to turn on me as well, or he's decided correctly, that he can't beat my turn, and is diving away to escape.  In either case, I have positional advantage and can control the fight from there.
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Offline NOT

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Re: The Evil, Evil HO
« Reply #25 on: May 15, 2009, 02:47:04 PM »
i know i said i wouldn't comment further, but i have to. moot is correct, i just watched the film, and my gear is down for a while. would explain why it wouldn't handle for crap. must have bumped it while looking around as it is mapped to the switch under my views hat. anyway.  :salute




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Offline moot

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Re: The Evil, Evil HO
« Reply #26 on: May 15, 2009, 03:12:40 PM »
<S> Not, it was a good fight.
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Offline Helm

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Re: The Evil, Evil HO
« Reply #27 on: May 15, 2009, 05:19:27 PM »
I wonder why folks who HO always call it a whine?

This looks like an intelligent discussion. At least to the point where helm posts.




   Oh come on!......this horse has been beat to death 5000 times........There is no "new" ground on this subject .....enuff allready


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Offline Helm

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Re: The Evil, Evil HO
« Reply #28 on: May 15, 2009, 05:23:10 PM »
To be perfectly honest the only crust I see in here is you and Helm calling whine where there's none. It's like you guys are so obsessed with whiners you see em everywhere. I didn't even go into the discussion that happened after that fight (where whining did occur) and instead went to the real issue - better or worse gameplay.


 Keep beating this dead horse! .....this is "THE" most over debated subject ever ....maybe you should try the "search button"? ...you might find a few thousand posts on the subject?


Helm ...out
« Last Edit: May 15, 2009, 05:30:48 PM by Helm »
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Offline Murdr

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Re: The Evil, Evil HO
« Reply #29 on: May 15, 2009, 06:01:07 PM »
....maybe you should try the "search button"? ...you might find a few thousand posts on the subject?

A few thousand posts on whether there was a "HO" in the flim moot posted?  I seriously doubt it.

I have to assume from your replies you are one of those clueless players that also have to jump in and moan around a HO discussion between two players in the game also.  Clueless?  Why yes.  Unless you're one of those two players, or happen to see the incident first hand, then you lack relevent information to comment on it.  Personally I'd rather listen to two player argue on whether a HO just happened than listen to buttheads who (again) are clueless on the details, whine about the whiners, or chime in with meaningless HO related platitudes.  Do you also jump in on strangers conversations to attempt to invalidade the topic of discussion in real life?  Lol, I can see the black eyes now.