The Little History lesson.

[Anaxogoras]

You can claim that Churchill is the reason of Britain not bending to the Germans, and therefore WW2 carried on and took millions of lives. So now prove to me where it would have saved lives, since the Nazi plan was to attack Russia anyway, as well as completing the final solution.

I think Kermit is talking about Churchill's insistence on attacking Italy before Germany?  Truly, it was an ill-conceived plan.  The war lasting an extra year = millions of lives.

[Kermit de frog]

You can claim that Churchill is the reason of Britain not bending to the Germans, and therefore WW2 carried on and took millions of lives. So now prove to me where it would have saved lives, since the Nazi plan was to attack Russia anyway, as well as completing the final solution.

Had Germany defeated Russia, we would have then fought and defeated Germany.  Now the world would have had two evils gone!  All of Vietnam and Korea would be democratic with less loss of lives during those wars, and also the lives lost in Eastern Europe from the Iron Curtain for 45 years would have been saved.  The entire world would be less socialist due to more democratic nations being freed and reformed.  Then we would be left to only attack Britain as they would be the only evil of the world with their millions they were enslaving.    

[PiratPX]

One might speculate that the war would have passed through Poland only once, in 1945, instead of -39, -41 and -45. Op Barbarossa would have had a bit deeper starting position, but I doubt it would have changed the final outcome.
Then again, the post war years in Poland under Soviet rule might have been worse? ...who knows?

Maybe in BoB the Poles would have flown 109:s (in JG303) instead of Hurricanes? 

I doubt there would be BoB. I'd rather see Brygada Poscigowa fighting together with expeditionary RAF squadrons along with Luftwaffe during siege of Moscow .
Do you think that Germany fighting on one front in 1939 or 1940, fresh and fully prepared, without the losses it sustained in Polish and French campaigns and BoB, and its blitzkrieg tactics still a surprise, wouldn't crush Russia? They almost succeed in 1941.

[oakranger]

The Second Pic conversation.

Russian:  We want Poland.

German: No, we want Poland.

Russian:  OK, we take Eastern Poland, German takes western.

German:  No, we want all of Poland.

Russian:  Why you want it all?  You have Austria and Cezh.

German:  So, what business dose Russia want with Poland?  It was sitting there all this time and you never done anything in the past.  Now that Geramy regain power and you guys now want it.

Russian (think in is mind):  agh, this is not going to end well.

German to the left:  Sir, we have Panzer they dont.  We can take them on.




Obie303's pic.  When Russian try to served German gone wrong.


Russian:  Here is our finest tank.  11.5 tonnes,  6-13 mm armour, 450 hours power engin, max speed at 200 km and 45-mm Model 32 tank gun and 7.62mm DT MG.

German:  LOL.  well we have the Panzer IV.  20.6 tonnes, 10-80 mm armour,  75 mm (2.95 in) KwK 40 L/48 main gun and 2-3 × 7.92-mm Maschinengewehr 34.

Russian: CRAP!
 

[Motherland]

A PzKpfw IV in 1939 would be pretty interesting...

[Angus]

I think Kermit is talking about Churchill's insistence on attacking Italy before Germany?  Truly, it was an ill-conceived plan.  The war lasting an extra year = millions of lives.

Doesn't hindsight give you all the power?
The first landing through the Atlantic wall was a failiure. Dieppe.
The landings on Italy came straight after the war in the desert. They did not fail, but were costly. They were also costly to the Axis, who's one power of three turned sides.

Now to Kermit:
"Had Germany defeated Russia, we would have then fought and defeated Germany.  Now the world would have had two evils gone!  All of Vietnam and Korea would be democratic with less loss of lives during those wars, and also the lives lost in Eastern Europe from the Iron Curtain for 45 years would have been saved.  The entire world would be less socialist due to more democratic nations being freed and reformed.  Then we would be left to only attack Britain as they would be the only evil of the world with their millions they were enslaving."

"We" is who? The USA I presume? I am sorry to disappoint you, but it was GERMANY who declared war on the USA. And seriously, had Germany defeated Russia, in which case a key issue would have been bending the UK or making peace there, the USA would not have been up to the task of defeating Germany. And for what reason anyway, the USA did not see a reason to make war on Germany in Britain's darkest days. Even the lend-lease deal to the British made it through congress with no width to spare, - so many were against it. And that was in 1941!
Me thinks you have to read more.

[Shuffler]

Germany declared war on the US because of the Japs. Germany was not prepared to make the declaration but had to when the Japs attacked the US.

The US was still leaning towards isolationism for the most part.

[Die Hard]

A PzKpfw IV in 1939 would be pretty interesting...

The Pz IV was in service in 1939, though not the late-war version oakranger mentioned. It was in German service from, 1936 to 1945 and was the only tank in service the whole war. After the war it remained in Finnish, French and Spanish service. The Pz IV's final war was the Six Day War in 1967 fighting for the Syrians (ex-French and Spanish vehicles). Remarkable service life for a defeated pre-war tank.

[Kermit de frog]

Doesn't hindsight give you all the power?
The first landing through the Atlantic wall was a failiure. Dieppe.
The landings on Italy came straight after the war in the desert. They did not fail, but were costly. They were also costly to the Axis, who's one power of three turned sides.

Now to Kermit:
"Had Germany defeated Russia, we would have then fought and defeated Germany.  Now the world would have had two evils gone!  All of Vietnam and Korea would be democratic with less loss of lives during those wars, and also the lives lost in Eastern Europe from the Iron Curtain for 45 years would have been saved.  The entire world would be less socialist due to more democratic nations being freed and reformed.  Then we would be left to only attack Britain as they would be the only evil of the world with their millions they were enslaving."

"We" is who? The USA I presume? I am sorry to disappoint you, but it was GERMANY who declared war on the USA. And seriously, had Germany defeated Russia, in which case a key issue would have been bending the UK or making peace there, the USA would not have been up to the task of defeating Germany. And for what reason anyway, the USA did not see a reason to make war on Germany in Britain's darkest days. Even the lend-lease deal to the British made it through congress with no width to spare, - so many were against it. And that was in 1941!
Me thinks you have to read more.

Whoa...I stated all the lives that were lost because of the Churchill's eagerness to go to war and you take the argument of who declared war on who between Germany and US?  Okay, lets get focus on that.  Yes Germany declared War on US, but Churchill had already pulled the US into the war.  Declassified British documents show that the US president and Churchill agreed to go to war in November 1941 and just needed Germany to attack a US vessel and bring the US into another world war.  Churchill had a proven record for staging a reason for a country to go to war, look at the staged attack on the Lusitania that Churchill was part in WWI.

[oakranger]

Germany declared war on the US because of the Japs. Germany was not prepared to make the declaration but had to when the Japs attacked the US.

The US was still leaning towards isolationism for the most part.

Did Hitler wanted Jap to attack U.S. anticipation that U.S. and Jap go to war and that Russia will declare war with Jap thus forcing Russia to split his force in the west and east?  Then German army will have a weaker Russian army to fight.

[Shuffler]

I'm always amazed at the mindset of some folks.


Like the kid that robbed and shot a couple awhile back in Houston. When caught he said it was their fault for not doing what he told them.


Mind numbing..........

[Shuffler]

In all these years I have not seen much of anything as far as Russian/ Japanese. Now on the other hand.... China was in the thick of it even before the US was brought into it.


This is an interesting discussion in regards to seeing how folks in other countries see all of our history.


Interesting too because you find that all countries have their conspiracy theorists.

[Kazan_HB]

I think, Hitler wanted Jap to attack U.S.S.R. ( Soviet Union)

[oakranger]

OK, let me make it a little clear.  Did hitler wanted Jap and U.S. to decrea war in hoping that Russia would Declear war on Jap.  And in the situation, that Russia would send troops to fight Jap.

[Kermit de frog]

In all these years I have not seen much of anything as far as Russian/ Japanese. Now on the other hand.... China was in the thick of it even before the US was brought into it.


This is an interesting discussion in regards to seeing how folks in other countries see all of our history.


Interesting too because you find that all countries have their conspiracy theorists.

Let's keep the discussion going without adding any insults, however vaguely they are concealed.