F4c FM is bugged...yes thats it, bugged

[Squidzilla]

 Hazed, as soon as you went and took up that pathetic nationalistic conspiracy tone in your post you probably lost what hope we'd get for this to be seriously checked out.    

 I heard you talk about this for about 45 minutes last night while you were testing. I can also recall at least  four people say "film it!!"  I have to ask, did you? It would certainly help cleared up any question on what it was you were seeing.




[This message has been edited by Squidzilla (edited 04-17-2001).]

[mx22]

I still don't understand what excatly is impossible? Is hazed saying that it is impossible to turn 360 using rudder only? If so, he's gotta be joking

mx22

[funked]

Please send it to me Hazed:  funkedup@raf303.org

I'll post it on my web site.
I'm not going to say if it's possible or impossible until I see it, because I'm not totally sure what you are describing.

[Regurge]

hazed, did you even try any non-american planes? Or did you test only the f4u and b17 and then declare that only uber-porked american planes can do it.

[Karnak]

Hazed,
"ensign killer" is really not a valid point.

When the RAF first got the Hurricane, the sqads that got it talked it up as a killer plane that had to be watched constantly lest it go out of control, just to make themselves out to be the best of the best.  In fact the Hurricane is about as docile as a fighter can get.  Bob Tuck was certain that several trainees were killed in Hurricane crashes because they were so nervous on their first flight in the "pilot killer" Hurricane that they messed up and fulfilled their fear.

This is, of course, proof that the Hurricane is a vicious aircraft and if it isn't modeled as such, it'll be porked.

------------------
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother

Bring the Spitfire F.MkXIVc to Aces High!!!

Sisu
-Karnak

[Jigster]

HT needs to explain lifting points(a place on the wing, not a value) again I see  

[mx22]

Speaking of planes flying while missing half a wing:

 

I had this picture in my collection for a while and can't recal for sure now if it was a collision or damage due to enemy fire... I think it was a collision with a Spitfire...

mx22

[GRUNHERZ]

Thats not anywhere near half a wing, its barely the last foot or so of the 190s wingtip. When the wing is shot off in AH it literally takes 1/2 of that wihng side, its not a bad DM model because the planes always fly the same when wing is shot off- some fly just fine others crash 100% of thime every time no matter what.

[Zigrat]

Well, grunherz, if you listened to funked, that might be right.

I of course have not analyzed a half wigless 109 but it may be possible that it is un trimmable. While the f4u may be trimmable.

My biggest problem is that I think wings fall off way too much in aces high. I think we should have more fires and less wings falling off.

Somewhere i read the only effective .50 cal ammunition was the incindiary in a study after the war i think..... and from most accounts ove read of american pilots they dont say "i sawed off his wing" but "i shot into his engine block and he started smoking and bailed"

[hazed-]

that was a joke about the USAAF stuff but this wont be looked into anyhow.Im going to be told this is normal for planes and im not going to beleive you that an F4uc could pull this manouver so easily.
What im trying to tell you people is YES rudder turns are possible and were used to avoid AA fire and present a smaller target.What they could NOT do is 'it' in such a small turning circle.The B17 can shallow dive rudder completely around and fly out 180degrees in what cant be more than a b17s width.
I cant be bothered to be honest.Things wont change and im fed up with the BB.If you're gonna tell me this is normal then OK OK ITS NORMAL.
I know what i think it is and ive never been able to do it on any other sim and it isnt possible on any of the other planes ive tested so far in AH.Only f4uc and b17 so far and no i havent tested all, i only just found it out.



------------------
Hazed
3./JG2

[CJ]

Hazed, first of all, I agree with what you said about the B17.  It did a level turn starting from 220 mph at 6000 some odd feetfeet.  It took 13 seconds to reach 180 degrees from the start of the turn.  I lost about 70 mph indicated.  This is entirely too fast.  Anyway, I did some math and it works out to about an 1200 foot radius, and at an average velocity of 200 mph, this is a 2.7 G boat type, wings level turn... the loss of speed was pretty high, but I don't think a plane like a B-17 with leg powered rudder, would ever have the authority to skid this hard, and I don't think the fuselage would create that much side lift.  A wings level turn should be possible in any aircraft, but 2.6 G's on a bomber that is only at about 2 times stall speed?  The wings could barely generate 4 g's at this speed, so there's no way the fuselage-rudder-engine trust vector combination could come anywhere close to a 2.5 or 3 G turn.  

As for the F4u 1c, i came up with about a 3 degree per second turn at about 300 mph.  This worked out to about a 1.3-1.4 G turn.  The radius worked out to about 9500 feet, and the lateral G load about .76 G's.  I think a Corsair fuselage-vert stab- trust vector component could equal .76 G's at 300 mph.  


**B-17 6000 some feet, 220 mph, 1200 foot **radius turn at 2.6 G's lateral **acceleration.

**F4u1c, similar altitide, 300 mph, 9500 **foot radius, .76 G's lateral acceleration


Looks like the B17 could need some looking into.  The F4u1c seems within the realm of reasonableness, otherwise known as TLAR (That looks about right!).


As for missing wing panels and being able to land, I guess it depends on what the damage display represents, and the aircraft's roll authority.  Fast rolling planes like the 190 and F4u, and even the mustang seem to have no problem, while planes with less aileron authority have more trouble.  Seems reasonable too right?  Also consider that even if half of the wing is missing, the root portion of the wing is probably where these planes get most of their lift since they have more than half of the area, the airfoil is thicker, the flaps are located here, and the other wing tip can easily dump it's lift with the aileron.  Dihedral angle and side slip further contribute to being able to maintaining attitude.  


Also I've lost the wing tip on the F4u many times and was never able to trim it to fly hands off with the missing wing tip.  

 

Originally posted by hazed-:
that was a joke about the USAAF stuff but this wont be looked into anyhow.Im going to be told this is normal for planes and im not going to beleive you that an F4uc could pull this manouver so easily.
What im trying to tell you people is YES rudder turns are possible and were used to avoid AA fire and present a smaller target.What they could NOT do is 'it' in such a small turning circle.The B17 can shallow dive rudder completely around and fly out 180degrees in what cant be more than a b17s width.
I cant be bothered to be honest.Things wont change and im fed up with the BB.If you're gonna tell me this is normal then OK OK ITS NORMAL.
I know what i think it is and ive never been able to do it on any other sim and it isnt possible on any of the other planes ive tested so far in AH.Only f4uc and b17 so far and no i havent tested all, i only just found it out.

[Dinger]

Thanks for the clarification hazed.  

[hazed-]

thnx CJ this fuselage lift is what i think is the part that feels totally unreal.
Skidding sideways at 200mph and just letting go of rudder with no adverse affect etc.The ease with which the manouver can be performed etc is what im worried about.IF like you say the f4uc was capable of these incredible manouvers then im astounded.Nothing ive read has ever led me to think this aircraft could perform this stuff with such ease.but i cant produce figures so i gotta bite my lip.
may as well forget all about it.

------------------
Hazed
3./JG2

[CJ]

 

Originally posted by hazed-:
thnx CJ this fuselage lift is what i think is the part that feels totally unreal.
Skidding sideways at 200mph and just letting go of rudder with no adverse affect etc.The ease with which the manouver can be performed etc is what im worried about.IF like you say the f4uc was capable of these incredible manouvers then im astounded.Nothing ive read has ever led me to think this aircraft could perform this stuff with such ease.but i cant produce figures so i gotta bite my lip.
may as well forget all about it.

Well, I've performed level, zero bank turns in my 1946 Stinson 108 at 120 mph, so i don't see why it would be much more difficult in an F4u.  Yes it would involve higher control forces than on the simulator, but I don't think it's something someone couldn't do.  Besides, have you seen knife edge flight at airshows?  They roll a plane 90 degrees and maintain altitude all the way across the run using a modest-heafty amount of rudder deflection.  That's 1 G.

CJ

[Jigster]

There's just a tiny fraction missing from the FW's wing in that picture...and even though all the FW's had sturdy wings, the outter cannon ammuntion would often blown the middle of the wing off if hit.

AFAIK, thats really the only reason the FW would lose a wing with reasonable regularity...it often comes up in gun camera footage.