Author Topic: F4c FM is bugged...yes thats it, bugged  (Read 2038 times)

Offline hazed-

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F4c FM is bugged...yes thats it, bugged
« on: April 16, 2001, 09:21:00 PM »
Ok i have just been on tonight and was very annoyed when i had a real fun sortie in a ju88 cut short.I was attacked several times by 109 and a spit but managed to hold on then i see an f4uc at about 800 diving in.i see tracers ping ping ping boom dead in tower.fun over  
I got annoyed and took F4c up for a flight to see if it had good e retention etc.
I tested the rudder and held it on full to my left and started a slide which to my utter surprise kept going so i adjusted ailerons to keep on level with horizon and i CONTINUED around! I did a complete 360 with a loss of 150 mph or so! the slowest it went ,even backwards! was 200 mph.
If at any point during this manouver you would like to go straight you can release joystick and pull out with speed.
This is terrible!
I then shot down a bomber by passing at 90 degrees where i used the rudder to gain final shot on bomber.this felt too easy 5 or so hits blew b17 to peices.Then i attacked a 2nd b17 and went headon but weaved my approach.there was many hits on b17s wing and it caught fire.
My right wing took hits and I lost half the wing.i then dived and tried the rudder again and i could fly easily with half a wing rudder seemed to work but not to slow the plane.
Please i would request HTC to test for theirselves.


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Hazed
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[This message has been edited by hazed- (edited 04-16-2001).]

Offline Karnak

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F4c FM is bugged...yes thats it, bugged
« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2001, 09:55:00 PM »
I too have been curious why some aircraft, F4U and P-47, can fly so easily with a heavily damaged wing but others, Bf109, Spitfire, ect., act as though they've lost the whole wing.

It makes me suspicious of the respective flight models.

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funked

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F4c FM is bugged...yes thats it, bugged
« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2001, 10:43:00 PM »
Hazed can you film this maneuver?  It sounds just like a wings-level turn which just about any plane can do in real life.

Karnak why do you think that different planes would not react differently to losing half of a wing?

Offline Karnak

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F4c FM is bugged...yes thats it, bugged
« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2001, 10:54:00 PM »
funked,
They aren't losing half a wing, it is representative of heavy damgae to that wing.

In either case, yes, I do think they'd react differently, but I'd be surprised if the difference was that one was easy to fly and the others were impossible.  Currently that is what it is.

Now if HTC is certain about how it works, fine, but think they might want to look at certain flight models with damaged wings.  Thats all I'm saying.

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We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother

Bring the Spitfire F.MkXIVc to Aces High!!!

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Petals floating by,
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Offline Maverick

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F4c FM is bugged...yes thats it, bugged
« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2001, 12:33:00 AM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by funked:
Hazed can you film this maneuver?  It sounds just like a wings-level turn which just about any plane can do in real life.

Karnak why do you think that different planes would not react differently to losing half of a wing?


Funked,
Read his post again. No plane in real world will do a flat 360 degree turn including flying backwards and still have forward velocity. None should in this game either.

Mav

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Offline juzz

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F4c FM is bugged...yes thats it, bugged
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2001, 01:06:00 AM »
Yeah right, he flew backwards...

Sounds like he did a "boat turn", a wings-level turn using rudder, which any plane should be able to do.

Offline Fishu

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F4c FM is bugged...yes thats it, bugged
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2001, 03:23:00 AM »
*yawn*
how many such threads theres been already and still things are the same...?

I've already lost interest to that, since no change seems to happen, no matter how many complains.

Offline StSanta

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F4c FM is bugged...yes thats it, bugged
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2001, 06:56:00 AM »
Regarding damage model, I am *pretty sure* that's it's a binary thing - either the wingtip is on or it ain't.

All planes I fly behave the 'exact same way* when they lose a wingtip. In the case of the 109, I usually auger. in 190, I can usually get home and land.

Personal evidence like this from myself and others lead me to believe that the claim that the graphical representation is different from the actual damage is a bogus one.

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funked

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F4c FM is bugged...yes thats it, bugged
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2001, 07:43:00 AM »
Mav, I'm not sure what he's saying, which is why I asked him for a film.

Offline Kirin

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F4c FM is bugged...yes thats it, bugged
« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2001, 07:57:00 AM »
109 flies ok with wingtip missing - but landing is a bit hairy, still possible...  

Piece of cake in 190. Although F4U seem to fly as nothing happened with wingtip gone. They even go faster... someone called it the clipped-wing-phenomenon - right on spot!!! If I would fly F4U I'd remove the wingtips on take off...  
Real men fly Radial!

funked

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F4c FM is bugged...yes thats it, bugged
« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2001, 08:36:00 AM »
Back on the missing wing topic:

Loss of wing area on one side (e.g. right side) of the aircraft does the following:

1.  It reduces the drag on the right side of the aircraft.  This results in a nose-left yawing moment which creates a nose-left slip angle unless countered by use of right rudder (rudder deflected trailing edge left).  If the aircraft has dihedral, the slip angle will create a left-wing-down rolling moment.  The right rudder deflection will also create a left-wing-down rolling moment.

2.  It reduces the lift on the right side of the aircraft.  This creates a right-wing-down rolling moment, which can be countered by reducing the lift on the left wing.  This lift reduction is accomplished by "left" aileron, i.e. the left aileron is deflected trailing edge up.  

Note that the required amount of this aileron deflection is reduced slightly by the the aforementioned rolling moments due to the dihedral and rudder deflection.  And the reduction of lift on the left wing (due to aileron deflection) reduces induced drag on that side and thus balances some of the yawing moment.  So the rudder and the ailerons "help" each other.

There is also a side-force equilibrium to consider.  A nose-left slip and right rudder deflection both result in a side force which pushes the aircraft to the left.  This can be balanced by a small right-wing-down bank angle. The bank angle means that a slightly higher lift coefficient is required for level flight, which is obtained by deflection the elevator trailing-edge up.

If the aircraft is able to balance out all of these moments and forces by control deflections it is said to be trimmable.

The conditions described above favor an aircraft which has very effective ailerons.  This aircraft will be able to most easily reduce lift and induced drag on the left wing.

Our conditions also favor an aircraft which generates small side forces for a given rudder deflection or slip angle, but has significant dihedral and a significant rolling moment due to rudder deflection.

It is the combination of all of these factors which determines whether the aircraft is trimmable or not.  These factors all are very sensitive to the size and shape of each part of the airframe (the powerplant plays a role too), so every aircraft will require different balance of these factors to reach equilibrium

Remember that these factors all change with airspeed and altitude.  In particular, aileron effectiveness is greatly decreased at very high indicated airspeeds for aircraft of the type in Aces High, and is usually decreased at very low IAS.  So the trimmability problem can change greatly depending on your height or speed.

To sum it up, trimmability in this case depends on several factors which are very sensitive to the design of the aircraft and the airspeed/altitude condition for which one wishes to trim.  If any one of these factors is not right, then the aircraft can become unflyable.  Some aircraft may be trimmable for all conditions, some may be trimmable only for a limited part of the flight envelope, and some may not be trimmable under any conditions.

[This message has been edited by funked (edited 04-17-2001).]

Offline Ripsnort

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F4c FM is bugged...yes thats it, bugged
« Reply #11 on: April 17, 2001, 08:40:00 AM »
Excellent explanation Funked! <S>

Offline hazed-

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F4c FM is bugged...yes thats it, bugged
« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2001, 11:01:00 AM »
funked this is an impossible move.try it yourself.
fly level in f4c at a fair pace say 300 then apply rudder full either way correct with slight aileron to keep yourself level and you can slowy go all the way around.
I have film which i will email you funked.
I dont know how to post film so maybe you could do it for me?


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Hazed
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Offline Dinger

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F4c FM is bugged...yes thats it, bugged
« Reply #13 on: April 17, 2001, 11:05:00 AM »
Uhhh. hazed. I did it.  And it is entirely possible.  In fact, it's supposed to do that.
but "flying backwards" I haven't seen.

Offline hazed-

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F4c FM is bugged...yes thats it, bugged
« Reply #14 on: April 17, 2001, 11:32:00 AM »
ok dinger now try it with the b17..........are you telling me that a b17 can do this too? Well it can in AH.
Seems those american planes were really the first to defy gravity and drag.

and why doesnt any other plane behave in this way? those pesky english/german/japanese just werent clever enough to design a plane like the super F4c!
<hears american anthem>
america,america ...land of the free!!..

please for 2 minuites stop thinking this is an attack on your precious F4u i just dont want to fight a plane with a screwed FM that makes it easier to get kills.
Im here to play a REALISTIC game.this manouver is impossible unless you were flying a stuntplane.the f4c is no stuntplane and was notorious as a very tricky plane to master.'the ensign killer' was its nick name?
In AH it is too easy to fly and has the most powerfull guns in the game.Everyone flies it and its pretty much all we ever see.I am JUST asking for it to be looked at and quite frankly i dont care what other peoples opinions are i would like to hear from HTC.




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Hazed
3./JG2