Comparing the 109G-2 to the Spit F.IX

[Minotaur]

After flying in ver 1.0 for the first time today, I noticed some changes made to the FM.  

The two biggest things that I noticed was that E retention seems generally less and the Spit IX seemed to have lost alot of acceleration.  I have no "Hard Numbers" to toss out, just my feel from flying alot in the AH Beta program.

This got me to thinking.
1) The Spit was previously overmodeled for acceleration
2) The Spit is being toyed with, as the 109 was tweaked, prior to the release of 109 variants

My current research more or less informs me that the 109G-2 and the Spit IX should be fairly equivelent reqarding acceleration.  Somewhere I remember reading that for AH the 109G-2 had the DB 605A (Non MW50) engine and the Spit had the F.IX RR Merlin 61 engine.

109G-2
Engine - 1475hp V12
Empty weight - 5,687lb
Max speed @ 22,640ft - 386mph
Climb to 18,700ft - 6.0min

Spit F.IX
Engine - 1565hp V12
Empty weight - 5,800lb
Max speed @ 25,000ft - 408mph
Climb to 20,000ft - 6.7min

[Source: Aircraft of WWII by Stewart Wilson cr 1998]

For correlation: (.3min is ~18sec)
109
Climb to 18,700ft - 6.0min
Climb to 20,000ft - 6.4min

Spit
Climb to 18,700ft - 6.3min
Climb to 20,000ft - 6.7min

(I can make no correlations for speed comparisons)

I do want to get tied up in the numbers, but from the above data I can draw the following conclusions comparing the 109G-2 vs the Spit F.IX
1) Climb rate is pretty equal, therefore acceleration should be pretty equal
2) The Spit has the potential to be somewhat faster in top speed

For AH, I am not sure how either climb rate or acceleration are or can be measured for comparitive acuracy.  However, my feel of the two aircraft tells me that for ver 1.0 the 109G-2 climbs and accelerates more readily than Spit IX.  

E retention seems better for the 109G-2 than the Spit IX as well, but this is only subjectional on my part.

Feel free to flame!  

Mino

[Fishu]

and I've always thought that best way to fight against spitfries is BnZ with 109.
How am I supposed to BnZ spitfrie if I am not faster in anything?  

I Do also believe very strong that 109 does accerlate and climb far more better than spitfrie..

[Minotaur]

Fishu;

Does this mean we kinda sorta maybe tentively agree?

<S>  

Mino

[gatt]

Minotaur,
as far as the engine is concerned your right. The G-2 had a DB605A-1 engine, same engine of the C.205. No MW50 aboard but there was provision for GM-1 injection.

With the latter the loaded weight increased to ~7,100lb but the performance gain was impressive: ~1,250hp @28,000ft. GM-1 nitrous-oxide (about 400lb) was normally injected at about 8 lb/min.

Strange thing: both W.Green and Osprey "Finnish Aces" books report a time to 20K of about 5'06". Osprey book data are from a 5/4/43 test flown by serial number MT-215 Bf109-G2 (100% fuel, 100% ammo, no ext stores).  

IMHO, the 109G-2 climb performance is undermodeled. But you know, I'm never satisfied ....  

[--my--]

For more info on the Finnish flight test on G-2 see another thread:
 http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum9/HTML/000213.html

--my--

[gatt]

Thx -my-!
BTW, where did you get that "no GM-1 on finnish 109G-2" info? It is very interesting, 5'06" to 6,000mt only with military power ... a real beast.

HTC, may we hope to have the G-2's FM tuned (and the light C.205's one too  )?
Would be interesting to know wich data they used to model the G-2 as well....

[funked]

Mino - Look at the loaded weights.  The Finnish G-2 was a little under 6700 lb, while the Spitfire F. Mk. IX was 7400 lb.  That should 'splain it for ya!

Here's some good Spit test data, courtesy 4th FG: http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/eagles/spit9.html

[Fishu]

 

Originally posted by gatt:

Minotaur,
as far as the engine is concerned your right. The G-2 had a DB605A-1 engine, same engine of the C.205. No MW50 aboard but there was provision for GM-1 injection.

With the latter the loaded weight increased to ~7,100lb but the performance gain was impressive: ~1,250hp @28,000ft. GM-1 nitrous-oxide (about 400lb) was normally injected at about 8 lb/min.

Strange thing: both W.Green and Osprey "Finnish Aces" books report a time to 20K of about 5'06". Osprey book data are from a 5/4/43 test flown by serial number MT-215 Bf109-G2 (100% fuel, 100% ammo, no ext stores).  

IMHO, the 109G-2 climb performance is undermodeled. But you know, I'm never satisfied ....  

A whole minute faster climb than its current model has?
uh! I want it!

[gatt]

Hehe Fishu,
I was sure to hit you with those data   Those data are not written in stone but they can make us reconsider the G-2 performance.

BTW, I think that the G-2 was a wonderful fighter. During late 1941 and 1942 LW had not to clash with heavy bombers and armament should have been enuff for dogfighting.

AFAIK, books talks alot of the FW phenomenon and too little about G-2s performance against Spitfires MkV and IX. Too bad.

[This message has been edited by gatt (edited 01-31-2000).]

[fats]

Funny that Minotaur thinks G-2 holds E better than Spitfire, when I am surprised by Bf 109G-2's _low_ sustained turning speed. I am thinking of going to some Finnish archives to find the test reports for MT-215, see if there would be further and more detailed information that could be used to prove the FM correct or wrong.


//fats

[janneh]

Dunno of G-2's real life performance & other things, but after flying G-2 only since it came available, I must say I'm really satisfied how HTC modelled it.
It sure isn't a superior in any aspect, but it is capable to survive out there.

One thing I had learnt in a hard way, If you see B-17 coming to you, RUN, RUN LIKE HELL !
Even if You manage to damage it, You certainly get bad damage too as G-2 "armor" is somewhat ridiculous for that job and guns too.

LOL, this reminds me nice "fight" with C-47.
I was outta cannon and only those "ping-ping" 7.9mm's available when I attacked a low C-47 heading to our field. Lots of pings, but not any damage after 3 pass, fortunetly one of my country fellow came and killed him.
It clearly shows that if You're outta cannon, it's about time to replane asap !

But, after all, G-2 is one beaty to fly  

------------------
"Flying Finns"
Crazy finns flying for Bishops.
"Pannaan pärekoriin ja veretään pitkin torii, perkele!"