Author Topic: USAF Firefighter plus AH Bomber Pilot equals........  (Read 1864 times)

Offline Castle51

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USAF Firefighter plus AH Bomber Pilot equals........
« on: May 24, 2009, 12:16:04 AM »
Why the hell don't any of these planes have working fire bottles?  They're in the cockpit as those four round red knobs but when you get an engine lit its an automatic death sentance for you.  It doesn't make any sense.

Offline Mar

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Re: USAF Firefighter plus AH Bomber Pilot equals........
« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2009, 12:30:41 AM »
Why don't people gather all the facts before going berserk?
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Offline LLogann

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Re: USAF Firefighter plus AH Bomber Pilot equals........
« Reply #2 on: May 24, 2009, 01:57:15 AM »
Are we in the Wishlist?

All the same.........Silliest post of the day, WTG!!!
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Offline Larry

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Re: USAF Firefighter plus AH Bomber Pilot equals........
« Reply #3 on: May 24, 2009, 07:04:36 AM »
Why the hell don't any of these planes have working fire bottles?  They're in the cockpit as those four round red knobs but when you get an engine lit its an automatic death sentance for you.  It doesn't make any sense.

Engines dont catch fire in AH.
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Offline Castle51

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Re: USAF Firefighter plus AH Bomber Pilot equals........
« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2009, 11:34:29 AM »
Engines dont catch fire in AH.


 Well I'm not a historian but I believe most American aircraft in WWII had self sealing fuel tanks to prevent fuel leaking from the tanks do to gunfire.  Now obviously if you take a hit by a bunch of 20mm rounds its gonna leave one hell of a hole and fuel will leak but with an aircraft traveling 200 miles an hour or so, the fuel vapors would be too oxygen enriched by the air passing over the wing of the aircraft and therefor be above the fuel's UEL (upper explosive limit).  If fuel still had a high chance of igniting under these conditions, modern jet aircraft would not have the option to dump fuel as it would pose too much of a hazard when the fuel vapors came into contact with super heated gasses from the aircrafts engines.  If you don't believe me, drive your car down the highway, light a match and hold it out the window.
       Something else to consider is that military grade or any aviation fuel for that matter has a substantially higher flashpoint than standard automotive fuels.  I wouldn't recommend trying it but I could probably stand in a lake of JP-8 (standard fuel for most U.S.A.F aircraft today) with a lit road flare, drop it at my feet and not have a care in the world about having it light off.  Now this one is up for criticism because I've been trying to find out what fuel WWII bombers used back then and so far haven't had much luck (I believe it was just a modified version of standard AvGas for the time.) so if someone could get back to me on that, I'll try to find its LEL and UEL for reference. 
         Another fact you all seem to be overlooking (like no one back in WWII could think of ways to solve these problems) is that just like the aircraft we have flying around today, even the gas tanks were equipped with fire suppression systems that would flood the said tank with foam were it to catch on fire.  I believe the company mainly responsible for manufacturing these systems was the Walter Kidde Company out of Belleville, NJ.  Here is a quote taken from a web page discussing the fire systems as well as other life support systems they made to support the Allied war effort;
             
         "Somewhere out in the far Pacific, a wounded Grumman Hellcat is spiraling down. As the pilot ditches the plane in the sea, he pulls the cord on his Belleville-made flotation vest and escapes along with a Belleville-made inflatable raft. The vest and raft keep him afloat until he is rescued. A distance away, on the deck of an aircraft carrier, asbestos clad men, known as "Asbestos Joes", watch as a smoking war bird tries to set down on the deck. A Kidde fire suppression unit prevented the gas tanks of the plane from exploding in air giving the pilot a chance to come in. When the skidding craft bursts into flames on touchdown, the "Asbestos Joes" rushed straight into the flames, armed with Belleville-made flight deck equipment, doused the flames and saved the pilot. Wherever there was combat, Belleville was present in carefully crafted equipment to protect the fighting men."

        Now with everything considered about the fuel, the engines WOULD be the most likely culprit for a fire on a plane and that is why WWII bombers were equipped with fire bottles.


Why don't people gather all the facts before going berserk?


     I could keep going because hey, I only do this for a living and your the one sitting behind your computer playing a video game.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2009, 11:39:39 AM by Castle51 »

Offline Karnak

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Re: USAF Firefighter plus AH Bomber Pilot equals........
« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2009, 12:32:24 PM »
Plenty of US aircraft in WWII met their ends due to fuel fires.   Self sealing tanks help, but are no guarantee.  The only aircraft in AH that didn't have self sealing tanks, so far as I know, are the A6M2, A6M5b, D3A1 and B5N2.  All other aircraft, including the other Japanese aircraft, had self sealing tanks.  The quality of self sealing tanks did vary though.

The A6M5 (A6M2?) did pump engine exhaust into the fuel tanks to make them less explosive.
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Offline B4Buster

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Re: USAF Firefighter plus AH Bomber Pilot equals........
« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2009, 12:35:55 PM »
self - sealing fuel tanks do no good when you have  30mm hole in your wing
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Offline frank3

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Re: USAF Firefighter plus AH Bomber Pilot equals........
« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2009, 05:39:44 AM »
Why the hell don't any of these planes have working fire bottles?  They're in the cockpit as those four round red knobs...

You mean the 4 red buttons in the B-17? I believe they were used for feathering the propellors?

Offline The Fugitive

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Re: USAF Firefighter plus AH Bomber Pilot equals........
« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2009, 06:17:25 AM »

     I could keep going because hey, I only do this for a living and your the one sitting behind your computer playing a video game.


You said it yourself, its a game !! It simulates combat in WWII, NOT duplicates it. Some considerations are made because it is a game.

Offline Shifty

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Re: USAF Firefighter plus AH Bomber Pilot equals........
« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2009, 08:45:47 AM »
Why the hell don't any of these planes have working fire bottles?  They're in the cockpit as those four round red knobs but when you get an engine lit its an automatic death sentance for you.  It doesn't make any sense.

I'm all for you bomber boys having fire bottles as soon as they remove your lazer guided bomb sight.  :aok

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Offline Castle51

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Re: USAF Firefighter plus AH Bomber Pilot equals........
« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2009, 10:26:18 PM »
You mean the 4 red buttons in the B-17? I believe they were used for feathering the propellors?

 I'm pretty sure they're the fire bottles. C-130s, C-17s, and C-5s have those four red buttons too and that's what they do.  Something that most people might not know is that usually when you see a button or switch that is Red or Yellow (or both-ejection handle) in any military aircraft, its gonna be for some sort of emergency.

Offline Golfer

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Re: USAF Firefighter plus AH Bomber Pilot equals........
« Reply #11 on: May 25, 2009, 10:40:26 PM »
I'm pretty sure they're the fire bottles. C-130s, C-17s, and C-5s have those four red buttons too and that's what they do.  Something that most people might not know is that usually when you see a button or switch that is Red or Yellow (or both-ejection handle) in any military aircraft, its gonna be for some sort of emergency.

A lot has changed with human factors and engineering since the 1930's.  The 4 red switches on the instrument panel are feathering switches for the respective propeller, 1, 2, 3 and 4.  You wouldn't likely find that in a modern cockpit but it's been 70 years since the B-17 was considered modern.

Offline frank3

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Re: USAF Firefighter plus AH Bomber Pilot equals........
« Reply #12 on: May 26, 2009, 07:42:25 AM »
I'm pretty sure they're the fire bottles. C-130s, C-17s, and C-5s have those four red buttons too and that's what they do.  Something that most people might not know is that usually when you see a button or switch that is Red or Yellow (or both-ejection handle) in any military aircraft, its gonna be for some sort of emergency.

Golfer is right, they're for feathering the propellors.
However, the B-17 (and probably many of its colleagues) did have fire-extinghuishers. Their switches would be mounted on the far right of the instrument-panel.
I'm not sure what these did, perhaps eject some kind of foam/water into the engine-compartment?

Offline Castle51

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Re: USAF Firefighter plus AH Bomber Pilot equals........
« Reply #13 on: May 26, 2009, 05:05:51 PM »
A lot has changed with human factors and engineering since the 1930's.  The 4 red switches on the instrument panel are feathering switches for the respective propeller, 1, 2, 3 and 4.  You wouldn't likely find that in a modern cockpit but it's been 70 years since the B-17 was considered modern.

Well I just looked it up and as much as I hate it, I'll have to admit that I was wrong.  The fire extinguisher controls were actually off the co-pilots right leg and the red buttons WERE infact the feather controls!  Contrary to just about every cockpit and flight deck I've ever been in and trained on, for some reason they decided to put one of the most important safety systems on the plane well out of reach of the pilot.  Why they did that baffles the hell out of me as the four red buttons I mentioned before would be the Ideal location and set up for the planes fire suppression system as it would be in easy reach of both the pilot and co-pilot (that's why most modern aircraft have that as their set up).  Again I do apologize for making the assumption on the B-17s instrument panel but the fact still remains that the B-17 still had a fire suppression system for its engines as well as the fuel tanks and should be an option in the game.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2009, 06:03:25 PM by Castle51 »

Offline Golfer

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Re: USAF Firefighter plus AH Bomber Pilot equals........
« Reply #14 on: May 26, 2009, 05:24:11 PM »
If you find a feathering switch on a C-17, C-5 or any other multiengine turbojet airplane that's not a B-36 then I'll tip my hat to you.  Any means of feathering anything for that matter on something that's jet powered.

Modern airplanes almost exclusively have the feathering of the propeller as a position on the propeller lever typically over a detent at the full coarse/low rpm position.  This is true for piston airplanes built in the '50s on to the newest King Air rolling off the line in Wichita today.  What I was getting at is you're not likely to find on a modern airplane 4 red switches/buttons/knobs like those on the B-17 for propeller feathering that don't correspond to fire or firewall shutoff features.  Human factors engineering and basic design evolution have brought us there.

I never challenged that red means emergency.  I challenged your insistance that the 4 feathering switches were fire bottles.