Machine Gun Lethality (or Are .50's Porked?)

[Vermillion]

Ok, I hate to bring this subject up, because it is an age old whine over in WB's, but I haven't had a good whine    in a while.  So here goes....

Back when the beta started, I really loved one aspect of AH. It was the first game where the .50 cal MG armed aircraft, were realistically modeled in regards to lethality. Now understand that I'm not asking for x4 20mm cannon results, I understand the differences. But I do expect, that one pass kills are possible with solid hits at convergences.

I'm not quite sure when things changed. It seems to have been subtle over time. But is it a result of "tuning" to the MG's or other changes such as the "hardening" of the aircraft. Not really sure. Talked with HT last night, and he said there weren't any changes in this version to the guns. Something has changed over time though.

The result is this. It is very difficult now to get solid kills with the MG armed aircraft. Even if performed correctly.

You almost always have to make multiple passes, where you get long burst hits at convergence. And even then your likely to only get an assist.

Twice last night and once the night before (only flown 5 sorties of any length these nights) I had very solid bounces on aircraft, that should have resulted in certain kills.  

The first last night was a bish spitfire at 25k over f5, looking lower than him for easy kills. I came in behind him at 28k and he never saw me. I approached with a shallow dive at about 300 IAS (had a beautiful 80% planform shot) opened up at d500 and strafed him tail to nose (solid 2-3 second burst) thru d150 and pulled off, expecting to see him die after his FE registered the hits. I had solide hit sparkles along the entire length of his aircraft, right thru my convergence of 300, and he never manuevered a bit. Nothing. He broke hard to my side I had pulled off, quickly went from 150 IAS to 400 IAS and chased me down and killed me with 2 of his buddies. Utterly ridiculous.  And I am not talking of a snapshot where my shots were distributed over too many areas to be effective.

Twice more it happen, the other times with a P-51 and a N1K2, both of them at on the deck altitudes.

Total results: 1 assist, 2 deaths.

I dearly hope this isn't an intentional change to "make for more interesting fights".

Please don't change things to the point where every fight ends up, being saddled up on someone's six on the deck and outta e for extended periods using up large quantities of ammunition (ala last several versions of WB's).

Fifty caliber MG's aren't cannons, I know that. But they aren't .303's either.

Lets get some teeth back in the fifties  

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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure,
Dicta Verm: "Never give the suckers an even break!" or translated "Never engage without an advantage"

[Fishu]

1. Check your connection quality for possible lost packets.

2. Try hit only wing, not all around the plane.

3. You might see alot hits, but each hit is not as powerful as 20mm, but you have more bullets in the air. (note; dispersion makes hits go all around, so one hit there and here is not as bad as with 20mm)

4. For me, 7.92mm has been enough, not to talk about 13mm.. and more superior to that, .50cal M2.

[Pongo]

Verm, Fishus point about connect quality and gunnery is very valid I think..I have had times when saddled a bogy right up with my FW and wail on him and he does not go down..If I see several things like this in a session (or even one) I relog and reconect to internet.

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Pongo

[Vermillion]

I understand the issue with connection quality, and its ramifications.

This has been a gradual decline of lethality over time, not a one bad night.

[humble]

I've noticed a significant deterioration in the gunnery model over the last few months. I've tried to minimize my whining, but do want to identify the root problem. In my case I've noticed 3 distinct changes...

1) ghosting rounds thru con's..usually is at close range 100-200 on full deflectons where you walk tracers down length of con and get no flashes.

2) intermittant (sorry for spelling) hits on manuvering cons..example..last night airtek was cranking a 1c hog around (excellent flying) and pulled up over me 1.2 out I closed to 800 as he bled e and watched him swing nose around as i closed to 400..i opened up at 500 or so got flash at 450 and died at 350 as his 4x20mm came around..i fired 120 rounds or so of spit 20mm before i died with no apparent damage

3) couple flights later had 3 kills and was chasing a nikki back to 20 (in 205 I believe) and had another 205 (yeager) co-alt(both 2k or less) coming at me...i eased to right a bit to gain seperation and turned into him about 1600..from my FE we passed parallel at about 600 yds seperation I took my back left view to see if he was gonna try a hi G turn or blow on by...and got lit up as he passed 600-700 on my 6.

My feel is the problem exists in my connectivity. I dont know how to check or troubleshoot my FE.

[funked]

IMHO lethality is rather too much as is.

[snpr]

I think I'd have to agree with funked--

Have been getting REALLY significant damage to other planes with what amounted to snap shots from 0.50s (pretty much I've been flying the F4U-D model lately)

Is it too much, too little?  That I don't know.  I don't think that a 0.50 is an insignificant weapon by any means... those Hisapno cannons are just MEAN.  

[214CaveJ]

I can't speak too much for the guns on the fighters, but the .50s on the bombers deffinately seem weaker.  When we first got the guns I was regularly getting kills out at 1.0-1.2k (could get pings out at 1.6-1.7k)
a few versions later it's 900-1.0k
couple versions later I'm getting kills d800-900
And today, I opened fire on a spit with ball and tail guns, started shooting at d800 (he started at d1.3k on my FE), hit sprites from the first rounds solid as he approached.  most of the hit sprites were on/about his left wingroot, but it dinnae come off until about d350, right after he took the wing off the 17 I was gunning on.

and my gunnery has gotten better over time, not worse =)

[Beefcake]

Here is my gripe. For some reason a fighter can fire about 10 shots and bring down a bomber. But yet I can pump a fighter full of about 100 shots and yet I get blown up and the fighter just flys off to kill again. First off, the 17 was built to take punsihment. Many of them flew into battle and returned with 1000's of bullet holes in them. Yet in this game 1 or 2 hits will blow a bomber up. The bomber is supposed to be tougher than a fighter, not the other way around. I will admit I may not be the best gunner (only have 70 kills as a gunner) but whenever I get jumped or attacked, usualy I'll fill the fighter full of lead, but he'll just fire a few shots and blow off a wing. I hope that the damage on the bombers will be rasied, or the damage on the fighters lowered.

BEEFMAN THE MAD BOMBER

[Minotaur]

Things I notice about the 20mm vs 50cal.

The 20mm does much more damage for six (straight up the pooper) shots to the fuselage.  The projectile drop is alot more however; and you have to pull more lead to hit.

The 50s do a nice job for deflection and canopy shots.  Unless you are at convergence range, they not as effective on fuselage six shots.   You have to hit a wing to be effective.

IE: Low six ambush with 20mm --> aim for the big fat belly.  Low six ambush with 50's --> aim for a wing.  

The shot picture is quite a bit different between the 20mm and the 50's.  Much easier to hit with the 50's, particularly shots where the plane is under medium to high G loading.  The shot picture is in front of you were you can see the target, not under the hood where you can only guess.

Definately snap shots with the 20mm are more effective in almost all cases.  Particularly with the N1K2 and the F4U-1C.

Taking wings off of BUFF's they are pretty much equal.

This is from my experience in the Spit, N1K2, F4U-1C/D, c.205 and the P-51.

As to the degradation of the 50's, I have no clue.  My gunnery sucked then and sucks now.  

Mino

[Pyro]

This hasn't changed in months since early in the beta when the drop in damage at long range was modified.



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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations

"If it's stupid but works, it's not stupid."

[Fishu]

I have brought down B-17 with 800 yards shots with 109G-2s single 20mm  
..while having 60 shells left

[214CaveJ]

it just seems wierd Pyro.  My gunnery in the buffs has improved over time.  I start shooting when a bandit is 800-900 yds out on my FE, which I figure is about 600-700yds on his FE.  I stand on the trigger and 99% of the time I'm rewarded with hit sprites from the first round and I maintain constant hit sprites as he approaches, until he looses a wing/explodes or I loose a wing/explode.

This dinnae happen in older versions.  And it deffinately seems to be changing as newer versions are released.  I'm getting more hits, yet I'm getting fewer kills/dying ALOT more.

[Vermillion]

Pyro, Ok .50's haven't changed.

But what about aircraft hardness, dispersion, or other settings that would have the same effect?

Not sure, but something seems to have changed over time, very subtle and very slow. But different.

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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure,
Dicta Verm: "Never give the suckers an even break!" or translated "Never engage without an advantage"

[214CaveJ]

Something HAS changed verm, and it may very well be the aircraft hardness as they fine tune the damage models.  If this is the case, the .50s need to be turned back up (to hell with turning them down for playbalance I say).  Whatever it is, it needs to be addressed PDQ IMO.

Last night in the arena, 3 sorties in a row my bomber was shot out from under me.  All 3 attacks were dead on 6 attacks with the bandit manuevering very little.  All 3 attacks I started firing at d850 on my FE (which translates to approx d500 on thier FE (BIG problem here)).  All 3 attacks I focused my fire on thier wing, with hit sprits starting from the first rounds out of the guns.  Maintained the hit sprites on that wing (with a few hitting the fuse/engine area I assume from dispersion) all the way to d300-350 on my FE, when my bomber would either blow up or loose a wing.
Out these 3 kills on me, I got ONE of them in return.

I get killed from d800 on my FE but can't get any kills unless they're inside d500 on my FE.  What gives?  It's no wonder a lot of the buff jockies are taking the time to climb to 30k+ these days, the guns seem to be about the equivilant of throwing empty beer cans at an approaching bandit.

I used to land 5-6 kill sorties in my B17.  More often than not I'd be shot up pretty good, but I'd make it back to base and land.  That hasn't happened in the last 2 versions (and I'm not talking about 2+ fighters coordinating an attack on me, I'm talking about 1 fighter at a time).

And before anyone thinks to mention maybe my gunnery needs improving, from comments made in the arena I've gotten impression that most guys in there think I'm Sierra Hotel on my guns and either approach my buff very cautiosly or just leave me alone.

Buffing and strat are my favorite things in AH (and I just downright suck in the fighters), and it's become very disconcerting that despite my skill on the guns I've become an easy kill, almost like back before there were guns on the 17s