Author Topic: Brewster Buffalo  (Read 9887 times)

Offline Wmaker

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Re: Brewster Buffalo
« Reply #165 on: June 03, 2009, 06:35:53 PM »
I wasn't even thinking of the IIC. The I may be slower, but is far from being "clumsy and unmaneuverable"...

Yep, those are the "some other things" things I mentioned. :) Although I do think that below 5000ft in many vs. many engagement Brewster will easily have the upper hand against the Hurricane I because of its better guns, power loading and speed.

EDIT/Note that the Soviets flew Hurricane IIbs./EDIT
« Last Edit: June 03, 2009, 06:39:26 PM by Wmaker »
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Thank you for the Brewster HTC!

Offline TheBug

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Re: Brewster Buffalo
« Reply #166 on: June 03, 2009, 06:47:08 PM »
If there ever was a group of guys worthy of getting "their" plane it has to be the Finns.  <S>

I'm happy for you guys and look forward to taking the Brewster for a spin myself.   :aok
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Offline Rich46yo

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Re: Brewster Buffalo
« Reply #167 on: June 03, 2009, 06:48:33 PM »
Rich, if you don't want to repost what you originally did, could you PM me? I've always been interested by Finland's largely unknown and kind of confusing involvement in WWII.

Well more "yeas" then "Nays" so Ill post shortly, and from memory.

Finland was in a complicated position as Europe moved towards war. They despised Stalin and were rightfully fearful of the Soviet Union which always had hegemonic designs on the mineral rich, and strategic, Finland. The Soviets even supported the losing side in the Finnish civil war of 1918. So there was no love lost there. To Hitler and his cronies Finland was not only an important source of minerals but also, in their minds, a fellow Aryan people.

Remember Hitler made a deal with the Soviets when they both invaded Poland, "the non-aggression pact"? What most people dont know is that Hitler signed away on Finland and the Baltic states belonging to the Soviet sphere of interest. That was the price of Poland for the Germans. Latvia,Estonia,Lithuania, ceded themselves to Soviet control. The price demanded of the Finns was a big chunk of their territory. The Finns resisted. The Soviets attacked them. The winter war had started.

Into this morass came a small number of Brewster Buffalos. Now as far as I know they were stripped due to American export Laws and then reassembled with mostly Yank kit except for the sights. Back to the winter war. The Finns survived but had to give large chunks of its territory to the reds and had to resettle a whole lot of their citizens. It was at this time that they pursued close relations with Hitler. Britain and France had just been defeated so it wasn't like they could turn to anyone else. So again you see, "complicated".

But at the same time the Finns allowed Germany to secretly move troops thru their territory on their way to occupied Norway in 1940, sticking a knife in their Nordic neighbor in the back. They started drafting for German SS units even before Hitler attacked Russia. After the attack, even tho they declared neutrality, they allowed Luftwaffe units to use their bases which cause the Russians to go to war with Finland again. The Continuation War had started.

During which Finland was about as allied with Germany as you can get. Hitler visited Finland. Finnish boys wore SS uniforms. Britain and Canada actually declare war on Finland. Finland allows German units to use its land mass to stage attacks. America threatens a war declaration if the Finns cut off the Murmansk supply chain to the Soviets, "now western allies".The Germans armed and trained the Finnish Military. The Finns annexed Russian territory. They were firmly in the German camp until Stalingrad, after which as you can imagine, they started having 2nd thoughts. From then on up to about the end of '44 the Finns played both sides. Accepting arms from Hitler while secretly negotiating peace with Stalin. Even tho they had promised Hitler they wouldn't.

Eventually in The Lapland war the Finns turned and attacked the Germans forcing them out of their territory into Norway. This was after making a separate, secret deal with Stalin. The beginning of this war was phony however, both the Finns and Germans only pretended they were attacking, "another secret deal". At least until Stalin found out and the shooting began for real, each side even threatening to kill each others POWs. Anyway the Nazi/Finnish love affair was over. Yes, the Finns fought both for, and against, each side during this war.

So on the one hand there is a small country desperately trying to find a way to survive. On the other hand there was a opportunistic nation playing each side for its own benefit. In their defense their choices were few, tho they certainly were allies of Germany. One thing they were not were allies of the west. While they bravely protected their Jews they also allowed the German to use American and Brit POWs to build roads and track in northern Finland where many perished due to the cold and ill treatment.

Quote
Sorry if I was over-long. No doubt the Finns have a gentler memory of the war.
The Finns in those Brewsters were defending themselves from a mass-murdering dictator with more resources and a higher ultimate body count than Hitler had. And they did it almost by themselves.

They don't teach you much about the matter of Finland vs. USSR in school, not many t.v. programs about it either. I think it is perhaps it makes all too clear the way the West repeatedly made deals with the devil and wussed out in regards to communist aggression against small nations in the 20th century.
Now heres a real historian. :lol

There were only a small number of Brewsters delivered to Finland, like 40 or 50 right? No doubt the Finns flew them bravely, "having your country invaded will do that", but the condition of the Soviet air force on that front, at the time, was simply atrocious. 1/2 was in the gulag and the other half was afraid of going there. The Germans destroyed almost their entire air force in the opening days of Barbarossa.

Still, and all things considered, both the airplane and the Finnish Pilots shined when their country desperately needed them. Of that there is no question.

"flying the aircraft of the Red Star"

Offline Cajunn

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Re: Brewster Buffalo
« Reply #168 on: June 03, 2009, 07:23:13 PM »
I wonder how many perks its going to cost, I think its going to get flown the he11 out of by all I'm reading here........ :rofl



Oh I'll start it

I think the Brewster should be perked because.........!
“The important thing [in tactics] is to suppress the enemy's useful actions but allow his useless actions. However, doing this alone is defensive.â€

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Offline Karnak

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Re: Brewster Buffalo
« Reply #169 on: June 03, 2009, 07:38:33 PM »
I wasn't even thinking of the IIC. The I may be slower, but is far from being "clumsy and unmaneuverable"...
I have, for many years now, considered the Hurricane to be substantially overmodeled.  There is a quote floating around out there than puts the time for a Hurri to do a full 360 degree roll at 4.5 seconds.  It does it in 3 seconds in AH.
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Offline shreck

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Re: Brewster Buffalo
« Reply #170 on: June 03, 2009, 07:54:46 PM »
Well if the brewster is on the way, how about I-16? Would be a  nice match up I think!! :aok

Offline Rich46yo

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Re: Brewster Buffalo
« Reply #171 on: June 03, 2009, 08:17:20 PM »
Well if the brewster is on the way, how about I-16? Would be a  nice match up I think!! :aok

Wonderful I think. A special event modeled on that air war would be terrific. :aok
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Offline Enker

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Re: Brewster Buffalo
« Reply #172 on: June 03, 2009, 08:41:13 PM »
Thanks  :aok


Added:

Found a real photo of it btw.

This post has a lot of really strange looking planes. One of the He-111 and another of something that looks like it's straight out of Star Wars from Russia

Not sure why the 190's there.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=3&url=http%3A%2F%2Fforums.civfanatics.com%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D290189%26page%3D3&ei=v_0mSqS4E5mUMeDE6YUF&usg=AFQjCNGMvUixi1rhDzZWh3PEFwk6N01KEA&sig2=OzvvH6PwnsnQlxzqT57Rug
I am doubting the credibility of that site, as they added the F-86 in the ugly list.
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Offline DrDea

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Re: Brewster Buffalo
« Reply #173 on: June 03, 2009, 08:52:22 PM »
I am doubting the credibility of that site, as they added the F-86 in the ugly list.
Yea no crap.That AND the Dora. Looks like that site hasn't a clue. And the HE111 was on it too. :rolleyes:
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Offline Widewing

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Re: Brewster Buffalo
« Reply #174 on: June 03, 2009, 08:54:08 PM »
Get ready for this....



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Offline Megalodon

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Re: Brewster Buffalo
« Reply #175 on: June 03, 2009, 09:03:49 PM »
There are many clips of the 229 in the "Suomen Ilmasota (Finnish Air War) 1939-45" 1-7 .. on you tube.

I would love to know what the anouncer is saying. Clip 3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dToF7s8wf8 at starting at about 2:45


and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLW9vFJ6qa8&feature=related"Air War over Finland" 1-7 some <repeat footage>

« Last Edit: June 03, 2009, 09:07:20 PM by Megalodon »
Okay..Add 2 Country's at once, Australia and France next plane update Add ...CAC Boomerang and the Dewoitine D.520

Offline Saxman

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Re: Brewster Buffalo
« Reply #176 on: June 03, 2009, 10:02:48 PM »
Well more "yeas" then "Nays" so Ill post shortly, and from memory.

Finland was in a complicated position as Europe moved towards war. They despised Stalin and were rightfully fearful of the Soviet Union which always had hegemonic designs on the mineral rich, and strategic, Finland. The Soviets even supported the losing side in the Finnish civil war of 1918. So there was no love lost there. To Hitler and his cronies Finland was not only an important source of minerals but also, in their minds, a fellow Aryan people.

Remember Hitler made a deal with the Soviets when they both invaded Poland, "the non-aggression pact"? What most people dont know is that Hitler signed away on Finland and the Baltic states belonging to the Soviet sphere of interest. That was the price of Poland for the Germans. Latvia,Estonia,Lithuania, ceded themselves to Soviet control. The price demanded of the Finns was a big chunk of their territory. The Finns resisted. The Soviets attacked them. The winter war had started.

Into this morass came a small number of Brewster Buffalos. Now as far as I know they were stripped due to American export Laws and then reassembled with mostly Yank kit except for the sights. Back to the winter war. The Finns survived but had to give large chunks of its territory to the reds and had to resettle a whole lot of their citizens. It was at this time that they pursued close relations with Hitler. Britain and France had just been defeated so it wasn't like they could turn to anyone else. So again you see, "complicated".

But at the same time the Finns allowed Germany to secretly move troops thru their territory on their way to occupied Norway in 1940, sticking a knife in their Nordic neighbor in the back. They started drafting for German SS units even before Hitler attacked Russia. After the attack, even tho they declared neutrality, they allowed Luftwaffe units to use their bases which cause the Russians to go to war with Finland again. The Continuation War had started.

During which Finland was about as allied with Germany as you can get. Hitler visited Finland. Finnish boys wore SS uniforms. Britain and Canada actually declare war on Finland. Finland allows German units to use its land mass to stage attacks. America threatens a war declaration if the Finns cut off the Murmansk supply chain to the Soviets, "now western allies".The Germans armed and trained the Finnish Military. The Finns annexed Russian territory. They were firmly in the German camp until Stalingrad, after which as you can imagine, they started having 2nd thoughts. From then on up to about the end of '44 the Finns played both sides. Accepting arms from Hitler while secretly negotiating peace with Stalin. Even tho they had promised Hitler they wouldn't.

Eventually in The Lapland war the Finns turned and attacked the Germans forcing them out of their territory into Norway. This was after making a separate, secret deal with Stalin. The beginning of this war was phony however, both the Finns and Germans only pretended they were attacking, "another secret deal". At least until Stalin found out and the shooting began for real, each side even threatening to kill each others POWs. Anyway the Nazi/Finnish love affair was over. Yes, the Finns fought both for, and against, each side during this war.

So on the one hand there is a small country desperately trying to find a way to survive. On the other hand there was a opportunistic nation playing each side for its own benefit. In their defense their choices were few, tho they certainly were allies of Germany. One thing they were not were allies of the west. While they bravely protected their Jews they also allowed the German to use American and Brit POWs to build roads and track in northern Finland where many perished due to the cold and ill treatment.
 Now heres a real historian. :lol

There were only a small number of Brewsters delivered to Finland, like 40 or 50 right? No doubt the Finns flew them bravely, "having your country invaded will do that", but the condition of the Soviet air force on that front, at the time, was simply atrocious. 1/2 was in the gulag and the other half was afraid of going there. The Germans destroyed almost their entire air force in the opening days of Barbarossa.

Still, and all things considered, both the airplane and the Finnish Pilots shined when their country desperately needed them. Of that there is no question.



IIRC, the declaration of war by the Western Allies on Finland was more just for show and to make Stalin happy than anything else, and as far as I know no Western Allies ever actually fired a shot on the Finns. So the situation wasn't just complicated on the Finns' side but the Western Allies' as well. The British, French, US, etc. wanted to support them in defending their independence, but to avoid war with the Soviets in the 30s and later during WWII itself to keep them pressing the Germans in the East, they gave in and ceded Finland. I THINK this is part of what actually drove the Finns into the alliance with Nazi Germany in the first place: They were abandoned by the West.
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Offline Guppy35

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Re: Brewster Buffalo
« Reply #177 on: June 03, 2009, 10:50:42 PM »
I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't lump me in with 75% of the tools who populate the MA.

Thanks.


Note the question mark at the end of what I said.  You comment was it wasn't useful.  I was asking if that is what you meant.   Many of us see the addition of the Buffalo as quite useful.
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Offline BlauK

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Re: Brewster Buffalo
« Reply #178 on: June 04, 2009, 02:36:15 AM »
Rich,
Nicely written. LIke I wrote previously, there were just a few details I wanted to comment. Also at some places the emphasis and selection of words would be different from my point of view... me being a Finn.

Into this morass [Winter War] came a small number of Brewster Buffalos.

The first Brewsters began to arrive in Finland just before the Winter War ended. They did not arrive to the combat units in time for any action.

Quote
But at the same time the Finns allowed Germany to secretly move troops thru their territory on their way to occupied Norway in 1940, sticking a knife in their Nordic neighbor in the back. They started drafting for German SS units even before Hitler attacked Russia. After the attack, even tho they declared neutrality, they allowed Luftwaffe units to use their bases which cause the Russians to go to war with Finland again. The Continuation War had started.
It was not a secret that Finns allowed German soldiers' "holiday transports" From Northern Norway to Germany and back through Finland. Norway was already fully occupied at that time, thus I see no knifing. Those transports were used quite a lot and thus Germany also secured their presense in Finland. When Barbarossa began, Germans formed a front in lapland, the Northern part of Finland.

Finnish SS-draft began in 1940, after the winter war and THAT was very secret. It was part of the desperate attempt to find some foreign support against Soviet Union. Finns has roots of military training in Germany during WW1 and it was wished for that these new men could follow the Jaeger tradition in Wehrmacht, but Hitler wanted all foreigners to go under SS.

Finnish SS-men were trained in Germany in 1941 and they fought at eastern front, but their training had not ended yet when Barbarossa began. Since Finland was again at war, some officers were called back home from SS battallion. Among those was a young finnish leutenant, Lauri Törni, later known as Larry Thorne (many of you may have seen the movie Green Berets, where John Wayne plays Thorne's part) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lauri_T%C3%B6rni

The Finnish SS-men fought in Ukraine and in Caucasus. They returned home in 1943. They would have wanted to continue fighting together at Finnish front, but were instead spread out to existing units. Finland and maybe also Estonia might be the only countries not ashamed of their SS-men.

Finland had declared neutrality all the time, not only after Barbarossa began. However it had also mobilized the army into its borders to defensive position, which was quite natural in that situation. Finland joined the attack against Soviets some weeks after Barbarossa began and Soviets had "techically started the war" against Finland a second time with its air strikes. Still there is no denying that Finland was planning to get back what was lost in Winter War.. and some more, if Germans were to be victorious. It was pretty much chosing between two evils when one cannot be left in peace.


Quote
The Finns annexed Russian territory. They were firmly in the German camp until Stalingrad, after which as you can imagine, they started having 2nd thoughts. From then on up to about the end of '44 the Finns played both sides. Accepting arms from Hitler while secretly negotiating peace with Stalin. Even tho they had promised Hitler they wouldn't.

Annexed... or occupied? Yes, they did not stop at old borders. Partly because of trying to find suitable defensive lines (e.g. istmuses between large lakes) and partly because of opportunism. Still they did not attack against Leningrad, since that was not in the plans agreed between Finns and Germans. Finns met the goals set together while Germans did not. Thus Germans were told that Finns will not advance any further until Germans have also met the goals. That was a useful excuse at that time.

You previously (in the deleted post) mentioned "a shameful Ryti-Ribbentrop agreement":  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryti-Ribbentrop_Agreement
That agreement was made by Finnish president (cleverly) in his own name, instead of the government. It assured that Germans would still supply weapons and other help to Finns in a desperate situation under the Great Attack (Stalin's Fourth ;) ). This left a way out of the war at a right moment. Ryti was among those few that Finland had to prosecute as war crimilnals after the war to please Soviets. Nowadays his actions are considered very heroic and self-sacrificing... not shameful at all.


Quote
Eventually in The Lapland war the Finns turned and attacked the Germans forcing them out of their territory into Norway. This was after making a separate, secret deal with Stalin.

Again, no secret deal. When armstice with Soviets began, Germans were told that Finns will have to evict them.
Naturally Germans began to withdraw to Norway while Finns followed a day or so behind. At first here was no desire to fight the old brothers in arms who had helped to defend Finland against Soviets. Of cource there was bitterness among Germans and Finns were also forced to show some action to Soviets. Thus it became more real fighting.

Brewsters were used in Lapland against Germans, partly because the 109s has no range.


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Offline Gianlupo

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Re: Brewster Buffalo
« Reply #179 on: June 04, 2009, 06:21:50 AM »
Annexed... or occupied?

In fact, Rich had a poor choice of words. At the end of the war (WWII), Finland actually lost some of his territory (that is, the ones it had before the Winter War) to the Soviet Union.
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