Author Topic: Fragile George?  (Read 1641 times)

Offline Ripsnort

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Fragile George?
« Reply #15 on: February 09, 2000, 09:03:00 AM »
Wells, I was flying a FW190 full wep, met a George coming at me HO. We were both at 10K.  I avoided the HO merge, pointed the nose down, got on the deck, kept running full wep, had LOTS of E.  The George turned around and after a 5 min chase, caught me.  Would that have happened with real WW2 planes?

Didn't seem right to me, BTW, he flat turned when I went past him, alas burning his E, but still caught me!

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Brian "Ripsnort" Nelson
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Offline Kieren

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Fragile George?
« Reply #16 on: February 09, 2000, 09:19:00 AM »
Man, that sounds like the uberCamel of DoA!

Offline juzz

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Fragile George?
« Reply #17 on: February 09, 2000, 09:20:00 AM »
I certainly can't see how that happened. George is slower on the deck than the Fw190A-8, and doesn't seem to gain as much speed in a dive. Maybe you were flying with a little bit of sideslip, a DT still on or something...?

Offline MANDOBLE

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Fragile George?
« Reply #18 on: February 09, 2000, 09:20:00 AM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Ripsnort:

Didn't seem right to me, BTW, he flat turned when I went past him, alas burning his E, but still caught me!

Probably the George made the turn at its
corner speed, so, without loosing energy
(not loosing but not gainning).

Anyway, you move was wrong. If you were
plenty of E and after the first pass he
made a flat turn, your right move should
be a steppy vertical Zoom climb ended with
a hammerhead over the George. 190 is a
tricky plane, but one of the most formidable
adversaries if well flown.

Offline Vermillion

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Fragile George?
« Reply #19 on: February 09, 2000, 10:49:00 AM »
Ripsnort:

Remember Co-alt does not equal Co-E.  And its real easy to get fooled, trust me.  

Fuel level? If he was fuel light, and you were fuel heavy, it makes a real big difference.

External Ordinance? Ie did you perhaps have rockets, or drop tanks still attached that you had forgotten about? Or were you carrying the x2 20mm's + x3 30mm's options? Thats alot of weight.

Where you trimmed correctly for your speed and altitude?

Where you performing a zero G dive?

All this things have to be taken into account.

Realistically though, I find your scenario extremely difficult to match with my own experience in the arena.  While the Niki has much better acceleration than the Fw190, I have never seen a Niki that was actually faster.

My bet is that he was significantly lighter than you were, and that he when he dived he accelerated faster than you were, and thats how he caught you.

Got film? Would love to see it.

{Addendum} Just noticed that you said at 10k and below. Remember that under 10k the N1K2 (2000hp) has significantly better engine output than the Fw190 (about 1800hp), and they are approximately the same weight. You were in his prime operating envelope. Will have to wait till I get home to check SL speeds for these planes.

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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure,
Dicta Verm: "Never give the suckers an even break!" or translated "Never engage without an advantage"

[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 02-09-2000).]

Offline Ripsnort

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Fragile George?
« Reply #20 on: February 09, 2000, 11:10:00 AM »
Well, lotta questions, here are "some" answers..

I was low on fuel, RTB'ing with no ammo, aircraft was trimmed out, no side slip, etc.I had (4) 20mm loaded in A/C.  

Initially, I was gaining distance, it wasn't until I was on the deck, after about 5 min. that the george eventually started closing the gap.

 I didn't film it, should have, and I will next time I run from one.



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Brian "Ripsnort" Nelson
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(Formerly VF-101 Grim Reapers~Defected~)
"There is no reason anyone would
want a computer in their home."
   Ken Olson, president, chairman and
founder of Digital Equipment Corp.,1977

funked

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Fragile George?
« Reply #21 on: February 09, 2000, 12:27:00 PM »
Fw 190 can run from the N1K in AH.  However at low altitudes the 190 pilot must be very smooth.  Any extra maneuvering will cancel the speed advantage.

Offline Ripsnort

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Fragile George?
« Reply #22 on: February 09, 2000, 07:28:00 PM »
I've just confirmed off line that a 190 at 5K with wep at top speed of 325 IAS 350 TAS, the George was 325 IAS 350 TAS, both identical speeds.

Now during my escape, I was flying thru valleys, which is probably why I lost some airspeed (see funks post above) whereas the George not only has an identical top speed as the 190, it accelerates quicker...it most likely didn't lose as much E in the gentle turns of the valleys as the 190 did, thus the reason he caught me.

Janes shows FW190A-8 at 643 kph at 18K
Shows the George at 640 kph at 20K

Not sure was the low-alt speeds are, anyone have info on this?
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Brian "Ripsnort" Nelson
++JG2++ ~Richthofen~
(Formerly VF-101 Grim Reapers~Defected~)
"There is no reason anyone would
want a computer in their home."
   Ken Olson, president, chairman and
founder of Digital Equipment Corp.,1977

[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 02-09-2000).]

Offline wells

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Fragile George?
« Reply #23 on: February 09, 2000, 08:14:00 PM »
Ripsnort, that's reasonable.

What dive angle did you use?  If you dove really steep and used a high G level off, he coulda cut the corner a bit in his dive.

Offline juzz

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Fragile George?
« Reply #24 on: February 09, 2000, 11:46:00 PM »
I was suspecting the George retains E better than the Fw190A - but if it did, it would certainly be faster.... Hmmm.... In AH, the N1K2-J seems to be about 15-20mph slower than the Fw190A-8 at all altitudes.

Btw, Vermillion: Do you have data on the N1K2-J climbrate vs alt, engine power vs alt etc?

Offline Minotaur

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Fragile George?
« Reply #25 on: February 09, 2000, 11:56:00 PM »
I have flown the N1K2 quite bit.  I never once thought the speed compared to a 190.  The only way I ever caught one, if it was trying to outrun me, was from a dive.  The 190 was at low altitude, with nowhere to dive away to.

I might say that players who fly 190's keep their speed high, but I am pretty sure the N1K2 just does not have the speed to catch a fleeing 190.

Mino

Offline Vermillion

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Fragile George?
« Reply #26 on: February 10, 2000, 07:23:00 AM »
I don't have any info on the George's climbrate vs altitude, that would bear any resemblance to AH. The one I have is from that Army Intelligence document that Pyro said he doesn't believe in.

One thing to remember is that due to the N1K2's lack of a good supercharger, the engine peaks low. This means that its top speed is not much higher than its Sea Level speed. I think its something like 369 mph at altitude, and 359 at SL. Where in other planes you will see a high max speed at altitude of 410+, but their SL speeds are down in the 360-370 range.

Now its possible for it to "retain E" better than the 190 at SL, while not being faster if your careful of what you mean. Let me explain.

The N1K2 and the Fw190A8 are approximately the same weight, and lets make an assumption that their max SL speeds are the same. At SL, the N1K2 produces approximately 2,000 hp, while the 190 produces around 1,800 hp. Which means it has a superior power to weight ratio, ie power loading, which is directly proportional to acceleration and climbrate.

Now they both manuever, and lose some speed and energy. The 190 may actually retain its E better, ie less drag (which would allow them to have the same max speed, but different horsepowers).

But in this case the N1K2 is actually "making" its E faster, rather than "retaining E",  due to the higher horsepower, and is out accelerating the 190 back up to max speed, which would allow it catch the 190 in an extended chase if you were on the deck and had to avoid a couple of mountains or three.

Especially if the pilot was good and was able to outguess the 190 pilot and cut an angle or two.

Just my theory. Wells? Or anyone else, does that make sense?

btw read up the thread in Visconti's post on the different horsepowers versus altitude of the Homare, and some other data.

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Vermillion
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Dicta Verm: "Never give the suckers an even break!" or translated "Never engage without an advantage"

Offline juzz

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Fragile George?
« Reply #27 on: February 10, 2000, 08:33:00 AM »
Now I'm curious... what does the Army Intel. doc. say? I want to see a climbrate chart plz...  

I have a question: How does wingloading affect climbrate vs altitude? Given two aircraft with identical powerloading, drag etc, but one has x% more weight -> x% more wingloading; will the lighter plane gain a greater advantage in climbrate as altitude increases?

Offline Vermillion

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Fragile George?
« Reply #28 on: February 10, 2000, 09:57:00 AM »
Be afraid... be very afraid  

FYI the N1K2 in AW is modeled off the Intelligence report I have referenced, which is where I got the data. And Pyro confirmed that this intelligence report actually exists, but that he believes that it is an "estimate" that they (the Army) produced after finding a crashed George and examining it.

Here is a chart I made with that climbrate on it.

 

Here is a Speed Chart from the same data with the same planes for comparison purposes.

 



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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure,
Dicta Verm: "Never give the suckers an even break!" or translated "Never engage without an advantage"

Offline Ripsnort

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Fragile George?
« Reply #29 on: February 10, 2000, 10:22:00 AM »
Verm, thanks, I was pretty sure that the George was a good low level performer. With the tests I did off-line, and your data, this has re-assured me to stay away from them in a FW  

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Brian "Ripsnort" Nelson
++JG2++ ~Richthofen~
(Formerly VF-101 Grim Reapers~Defected~)
"There is no reason anyone would
want a computer in their home."
   Ken Olson, president, chairman and
founder of Digital Equipment Corp.,1977