Fragile George?

[funked]

I have absolutely ZERO hard data to back this up.  

But the N1K2 sure seems to fall apart after a small amount of hits.

I can't think of any reason this plane should not be as durable as the others.  The empty weight and size are similar to the Fw 190A, La-5FN, and P-51D, and it is a heavier and larger aircraft than the Me 109 or Spitfire.  It had armor and self sealing fuel tanks.  I've read a couple of stories where USN pilots were amazed at how tough it was.  

I've seen all the Aces High fighter planes (except the La-5FN) next to eachother in one room at the Champlin museum and the plane really has a substantial and sturdy look to it, more so than the Fw 190.  The exception is the F4U which is an absolute beast!

I could be wrong but it don't seem right...

[MiG Eater]

My experiences against the N1K have usally shown it to be a fairly sturdy airplane, especially against .50's.  Flying once against Hollywood, I was pinging him in a dogfight for a solid 30 seconds.  Every burst resulted in multiple hits at or closer than convergence.  Both of us couldn't believe how many hits his George took.  

Haven't flown in the N1k since beta, but I'll give it a go next time I'm up.

MiG

[funked]

Hmmm I'm probably full of it then, oversensitized to the usual treatment of Japanese planes in sims.  

[Fishu]

Honestly, I keep N1K2 much more tougher to shoot down than P-51  
P-51 wrecks apart just with a touch, while N1K2 keeps flying after several hits, definetly if its not cannon hitting it.

Anyway, I have been shooting down planes often with a pair of 7.92mm, and I can say that N1K2 takes toejamloads of those peas, more than other planes. (lol, only B-26 and B-17 takes more.. I have shot down B-17 succesfully with those peashots, takes REAL many hits )

[VISCONTI]

N1K2 take a lot of ammo but dont know if japanese add "shield" on this late war plane but i have read that his durability was Good.

anyway I still dont understand why this plane speed is overmodelled.

George was not a fast fighter (top speed = 363 mph)

Note:
"The Shiden Kai were probably the most outstanding designs put into production for the JNAF during the war. Though it was fairly slow for 1944-1945 standards, it could turn inside anything the Americans had deployed as well as outclimb and outroll them at any speed. Its heavy armament seemingly made it a good choice for intercepting B-29s, but the George did not turn out to be adequate in this role as its high-altitude performance deteriorated rapidly above 20.000 feet."

Top speed = 363 mph
Range = 890 miles
Ceiling = 41.000 feet
Climb rate = 2.950 ft./min.

[Vermillion]

VISCONTI, how is it overmodelled?

Please, post some numbers as I am very interested in your perspective. You give a reference, but you don't post any inflight in AH numbers for the aircraft.

Go back and read the threads on the N1K2, when it first came out. Most people thought it was undermodelled, considerably. Myself included.

You do realize that this aircraft had a 2000hp engine dont' you? In other words as powerful as the F4U engine, with an aircraft that weighed about 3,000lbs less (weight number from memory, but close).



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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure,
Dicta Verm: "Never give the suckers an even break!" or translated "Never engage without an advantage"

[wells]

 

George was not a fast fighter (top speed = 363 mph)

Do you realize that there were two main George variants?  Perhaps the number you quote is referring to the N1K1 and not the N1K2?  Eric Brown seems to think so...quoting the N1K2 (the model we have in AH) as being able to fly at 407 mph.  

Despite low quality materials being used in construction, I have read that the Japanese were using 85 grade fuel, which is significantly lower than the 100 grade that the U.S. and British forces were using and even the Germans to some extent.  This would account for the engine not producing it's rating of 2000 hp.  This plane is definitely capable of being faster than a Hellcat and close to an F4u-1, given 100 grade fuel, which is probably how it was flight tested in the U.S. once captured!

[VISCONTI]

All i have found is that:

Specification of the Kawanishi N1K1-J Shiden

One Nakajima NK9H Homare 21 eighteen-cylinder air-cooled radial rated at 1990 hp for takeoff, 1825 hp at 5740 feet, 1625 hp at 20,015 feet. Performance: Maximum speed 363 mph at 19,355 feet, 334 mph at 8040 feet. Cruising speed 230 mph at 6560 feet, service ceiling 41,000 feet cruising speed 230 mph at 6600 feet. Climb to 19,685 feet in 7 minutes 50 seconds. Normal range 890 miles at 230 mph at 13,120 feet, maximum range 1580 miles.

Weights: 6387 pounds empty, 8598 pounds loaded, 9526 pounds maximum loaded.

Dimensions: wingspan 39 feet 4 7/16 inches, length 29 feet 1 25/32 inches, height 13 feet 3 27/32 inches, wing area 252.95 square feet.

Armament: Two 7.7-mm Type 97 machine guns in the fuselage, two 20-mm Type 99 Model 2 cannon in the wings, two 20-mm Type 99 Model 2 cannon in underwing gondolas. Two 132-pound bombs or one 88 Imp gall drop tank could be carried externally.


Specification of the Kawanishi N1K2-J Shiden Kai:

One Nakajima NK9H Homare 21 eighteen-cylinder air-cooled radial rated at 1990 hp for takeoff, 1825 hp at 5740 feet, 1625 hp at 20,015 feet. Performance: Maximum speed 369 mph at 19,355 feet, 359 mph at 9840 feet. Cruising speed 230 mph at 9845 feet, service ceiling 35,300 feet cruising speed 230 mph at 6600 feet. Climb to 19,685 feet in 7 minutes 22 seconds. Normal range 1066 miles at 219 mph at 9840 feet, maximum range 1488 miles with 88 Imp. gall. drop tank.

Weights: 5858 pounds empty, 8818 pounds loaded, 10,714 pounds maximum loaded.

Dimensions: wingspan 39 feet 4 7/16 inches, length 30 feet 7 29/32 inches, height 12 feet 11 29/32 inches, wing area 252.95 square feet.

Armament: Four 20-mm Type 99 Model 2 cannon in the wings. Two 551-pound bombs or one 88 Imp. gall. drop tank could be carried externally.


hope some japanese friend can give us more info.

[VISCONTI]

Sorry!

cause i am a dweb 205 pilot i overestimated the AH N1K2.
I have done some test whit N1K2 ofline and his speed performance are good modelled.

sorry again
 

[Vermillion]

No reason to be sorry Visconti  

At least you had the guts to come back, and admitt a misconception.

I guess now you have figured out the whole point of my asking for a comparison of published data versus inflight testing.

And I also noticed that you pulled the data from Francillons excellent book on Japanese aircraft.

The biggest reason that I think people should do some controled offline (ie noncombat) testing, is that while in combat many factors can impact you impression.

In this case with the N1K2,it has pretty good acceleration, and this can make it seem in combat like it has very good top speed. Its quite deceptive.

Good data vs Extensive testing is the only way to go.

And personally, I still think the Eric Green number (407 mph) for the N1K2 is much more likely given the aircrafts design, than the more prevalent 369 mph. Ah well, I don't think the data exists anymore to even prove it either way.

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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure,
Dicta Verm: "Never give the suckers an even break!" or translated "Never engage without an advantage"

[wells]

 

And personally, I still think the Eric Green number (407 mph) for the
                N1K2 is much more likely given the aircrafts design, than the more
                prevalent 369 mph. Ah well, I don't think the data exists anymore to
                even prove it either way.

I agree totally!  I'm convinced now that the fuel is the key component to the performance of the Japanese fighters.  With the low fuel grade, output of the engine was something like 1700-1800 hp at sea level (which I've seen quoted in some instances) and about 1300-1400 at 20k.  It's performance then makes sense.  I'm trying to get my hands on that book...it looks pretty good!  Check out the latest Flight Journal magazine, there's a bit on the George in there!

[juzz]

The N1K2-J  does appear to have slightly too much climb: I get 6'47" to 20,000ft, the figure quoted above is 7'22" to 19,685ft...  

It wasn't just fuel affecting performance; the Homare engine's power was inconsistant due to poor manufacturing, it was a similar story with the engines used in the Ki-61 series too.

[Vermillion]

oh agreed Juzz.

But that goes back to the age old question, do we use "perfect" factory fresh prototype numbers for FM's (which is where most of our data comes from), or do we use production numbers (which were almost always lower than prototype numbers from every country) and war weary aircraft numbers.

No easy answers unfortunately  

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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure,
Dicta Verm: "Never give the suckers an even break!" or translated "Never engage without an advantage"

[Vermillion]

Oh and Wells,

Lets not forget the Ki-84 that was tested in Pennsylvania in 1946.  It topped out at 425 mph. And lets all remember that it has the same 2000hp Homare as the N1K2.

Also look at the difference between a F4U-4 on 100 octane (AHT #'s) versus the Navy data (Naval Aviation website) which was tested on 115 octane fuel. Looks like a whole different airplane.  Same thing with some spitfire tests I have seen.

If all our data on Japanese aircraft comes from 85 octane fuel, we are never gonna see their true potential.

Give me a 425mph Ki-84, and I won't fly NOTHING else   And I will even start too drink Saki every Friday night in tribute *blahhh*  

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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure,
Dicta Verm: "Never give the suckers an even break!" or translated "Never engage without an advantage"

[spinny]

"Give me a 425mph Ki-84, and I won't fly NOTHING else."

And if one of those was around, I'd never come down under 20K  

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Spinny, VF-17, The Jolly Rogers 8X