Author Topic: Video: Royal Marines capture and sink pirate vessel  (Read 4797 times)

Offline Die Hard

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Re: Video: Royal Marines capture and sink pirate vessel
« Reply #60 on: June 07, 2009, 10:29:36 AM »
And so far it's you plus a couple of somali hobo's versus the rest of the world on the 'without adequate grounds'.

The rest of the world is perhaps a bit of an exaggeration; in legal circles there are people who are concerned with the increasing tendency of government and "international" organizations to act above the law. Like I said earlier, I don't care what happened to the suspected pirates.



The UN defines a pirates ship as:

Article103

Definition of a pirate ship or aircraft

A ship or aircraft is considered a pirate ship or aircraft if it is intended by the persons in dominant control to be used for the purpose of committing one of the acts referred to in article 101. The same applies if the ship or aircraft has been used to commit any such act, so long as it remains under the control of the persons guilty of that act.


A pirate vessel does not need to have attacked another boat/ship to be considered a pirate vessel.

You'd have to prove that the persons involved intended to commit piracy; which is nearly impossible when the waters are patrolled by gun-toting militia protecting Somali waters from waste dumping and illegal fishing. The same equipment used for piracy is used for legal purposes by the militia.

"Without a coast guard to monitor and prevent such illegal activities, Somali fishermen began organizing and arming themselves to confront waste dumpers and to collect fees from foreign vessels taking fish out of their waters. Middleton says what began as a legitimate fight against foreign exploitation turned into a criminal enterprise when everyone discovered its lucrative potential."

If the Portland could prove intent they would have arrested the suspected pirates. However they couldn't, so they just robbed them instead.




Diehard, have you even read the articles you are quoting? You are cherry picking words (highlighting) which are irrelevant in the context the article and other articles regarding piracy.

Article 110:

"a warship which encounters on the high seas a foreign ship, other than
a ship entitled to complete immunity in accordance with articles 95 and 96,
is not justified in boarding it unless there is reasonable ground for suspecting
that:
(a) the ship is engaged in piracy"

-  there were reasonable grounds for suspecting piracy- 1 large boat tethered to 1 small, fast boat is the standard MO for piracy in this region.



Article 106:

Article 106 of UNCLOS

"Liability for seizure without adequate grounds:

Where the seizure of a ship or aircraft on suspicion of piracy has been
effected without adequate grounds, the State making the seizure shall be
liable to the State the nationality of which is possessed by the ship or aircraft
for any loss or damage caused by the seizure."
-  There were adequate grounds for seizure- in the very least  they found ak47's, rpg's, grappling hooks and extra fuel.  Not your standard fishing items, they are however your standard items for commiting piracy.




First of all you need to understand the law; article 110 specifically addresses the "right of visit", or in other words the right to inspect a suspicious vessel. Article 106 however specifically addresses the "liability for seizure without adequate grounds", or in other words the right to confiscate their property. The two articles are completely independent and the right to visit does not automatically grant the right of seizing their property. Under article 110 HMS Portland was fully justified in inspecting the Somali vessels. However since the Somalis did not qualify under the UNCLOS definition of piracy, HMS Portland was not justified in seizing the weapons and boat.

As a British official put it: “We can only arrest suspected pirates if we catch them in the act or on the point of launching an attack on a vessel. Clearly, with all the weaponry in the skiffs, there was an intent to commit piracy, but we hadn’t actually caught them in the middle of an attack so we had to release them.”

The HMS Portland did not have grounds to arrest the Somalis, and if there are no grounds for arrest there are certainly no grounds for other punitive measures.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2009, 10:35:27 AM by Die Hard »
It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of nonviolence to cover impotence.

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Offline ariansworld

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Re: Video: Royal Marines capture and sink pirate vessel
« Reply #61 on: June 07, 2009, 12:41:28 PM »
DieHard you are a pirate, you should be tried for piracy.

Offline Die Hard

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Re: Video: Royal Marines capture and sink pirate vessel
« Reply #62 on: June 07, 2009, 12:45:57 PM »
DieHard you are a pirate, you should be tried for piracy.

Prove it. That's how justice works in civilized countries. Or rather should work...
It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of nonviolence to cover impotence.

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Offline SmokinLoon

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Re: Video: Royal Marines capture and sink pirate vessel
« Reply #63 on: June 07, 2009, 02:09:48 PM »
We don't know for sure that they were pirates, and that's the point. For instance they could simply be Somali militiamen out paroling; unlikely, but not beyond the realm of possibility. Should the RN (and other navies) really have the power to board foreign vessels, "confiscate" any weapons they find, and sink some or all of them just on the suspicion of piracy? Is that really the power we want to give, say the Iranian navy? Or the Chinese navy?

Here's the problem: If the RN didn't have enough evidence to actually arrest them (and the article said they didn't) how can they be justified in confiscating and destroying their property? If the cops can't prove you were speeding, should they be allowed to just confiscate any legal weapons you have and set fire to your car? Is it OK as long as they give you cab money to get home?

I don't give a flying twittle about the Somali pirates; I hope they capsized and drowned on the way home. However I do care a great deal about the abuse of power by, and unaccountability of armed government agencies, in this case the Royal Navy.

You're real good at assuming te worst.  Know this: the RN, USN, or any other legit navy in this world wants to do what they just did without reason, proof, and diplomatic approval.  I'd be willing to bet the UK had the USN and the French Navy, and any other legit naval forces in the area on the horn as well.  The RN simply didnt fire to have fun.   

There is far more to this story than you can comprehend.
Proud grandson of the late Lt. Col. Darrell M. "Bud" Gray, USAF (ret.), B24D pilot, 5th BG/72nd BS. 28 combat missions within the "slot", PTO.

Offline Angus

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Re: Video: Royal Marines capture and sink pirate vessel
« Reply #64 on: June 07, 2009, 04:04:24 PM »
Hmm. Does an AK-47 get you fish? Skipping the fishing gear and carrying arms somehow smells of a ... wannabe-a-pirate. And bopping around the descendants of Francis Drake is bound to end....badly.
WTG RN  :aok
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Offline eddiek

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Re: Video: Royal Marines capture and sink pirate vessel
« Reply #65 on: June 07, 2009, 04:11:02 PM »

Royal Navy:  1
Die Hard and His Pirates:  0

Offline Swoop

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Re: Video: Royal Marines capture and sink pirate vessel
« Reply #66 on: June 07, 2009, 04:36:17 PM »
Where the seizure of a ship or aircraft on suspicion of piracy has been
effected without adequate grounds, the State making the seizure shall be
liable to the State the nationality of which is possessed by the ship or aircraft
for any loss or damage caused by the seizure."


Again, ok.

When we get the bill sent over from the Somali state authorities we'll pay up.


I reckon we'll be waiting for a while.

Offline SPKmes

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Re: Video: Royal Marines capture and sink pirate vessel
« Reply #67 on: June 07, 2009, 04:53:00 PM »
Sure they weren't launching an attack or attacking but I'm pretty sure that most of those weapons would have to be accounted for in some way thus there would be legitimate paper work for those "fishermilitia???men" to carry the weapons on board such a fine vessel. ( maybe they used this arsenal to give them free birthing rights in ports around the world )If not as the case would be/is then the RN had every right to board for a search confiscate illegal weapons and the craft used to transport them. Those Somali's should be thankful they were left with something to get home in.

Offline humble

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Re: Video: Royal Marines capture and sink pirate vessel
« Reply #68 on: June 07, 2009, 05:21:12 PM »
The action was entirely legal and consistent with both current and historical maritime protocol. UNCLOS in no way prohibits any nation from protecting its sovereign interests.

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Offline Die Hard

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Re: Video: Royal Marines capture and sink pirate vessel
« Reply #69 on: June 08, 2009, 06:52:08 PM »

Again, ok.

When we get the bill sent over from the Somali state authorities we'll pay up.


I reckon we'll be waiting for a while.


Yeah, the lawlessness of Somalia protects the RN as much as it does the pirates in this case.


Sure they weren't launching an attack or attacking but I'm pretty sure that most of those weapons would have to be accounted for in some way thus there would be legitimate paper work for those "fishermilitia???men" to carry the weapons on board such a fine vessel. ( maybe they used this arsenal to give them free birthing rights in ports around the world )If not as the case would be/is then the RN had every right to board for a search confiscate illegal weapons and the craft used to transport them. Those Somali's should be thankful they were left with something to get home in.

First, legitimate paperwork in Somalia? lol

Second, I doubt very much there are any Somali laws on gun ownership and the only law applicable aboard Somali vessels is Somali law.

Third, the RN does not have the right to confiscate any weapons aboard a foreign vessel that has not done anything illegal.



The action was entirely legal and consistent with both current and historical maritime protocol. UNCLOS in no way prohibits any nation from protecting its sovereign interests.

What a wonderfully vague statement. Cite the law.
It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of nonviolence to cover impotence.

-Gandhi

Offline Vulcan

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Re: Video: Royal Marines capture and sink pirate vessel
« Reply #70 on: June 08, 2009, 07:22:32 PM »
Third, the RN does not have the right to confiscate any weapons aboard a foreign vessel that has not done anything illegal.

I don't believe they confiscated them, as far as I know said weapons are awaiting to be collected - at the bottom of the indian ocean.

If somalia is lawless then how can the RN have violated any somali laws?

Offline Die Hard

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Re: Video: Royal Marines capture and sink pirate vessel
« Reply #71 on: June 08, 2009, 07:55:22 PM »
RN violated international law. UNCLOS to be specific. Unlike the United States, the United Kingdom ratified UNCLOS (altough the U.S. does recognize it as a codification of customary international law). By ratification the British incorporated UNCLOS into their own legal framework, in effect turning it into U.K. Law.
It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of nonviolence to cover impotence.

-Gandhi

Offline SPKmes

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Re: Video: Royal Marines capture and sink pirate vessel
« Reply #72 on: June 08, 2009, 09:43:05 PM »
[quote


First, legitimate paperwork in Somalia? lol

Second, I doubt very much there are any Somali laws on gun ownership and the only law applicable aboard Somali vessels is Somali law.

Third, the RN does not have the right to confiscate any weapons aboard a foreign vessel that has not done anything illegal.
.
[/quote]


All weapons are accounted for in some form, right from manufacture. They don't just hand them out. So at some stage these were stolen and if not then even in a place where you LOL at the thought of legitimate paper work would have some form of accountability..(somebody knows where they came from) This being said the vessels holding these weapons should have some form of identification or at the least the ability to produce /confirm the legitimacy. Even you would carry a license for a gun if you had one and if you didn't and were found to be in possession of one do you think the authorities will say oh well you can keep it, we trust you.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2009, 09:46:49 PM by SPKmes »

Offline Vulcan

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Re: Video: Royal Marines capture and sink pirate vessel
« Reply #73 on: June 08, 2009, 09:57:58 PM »
RN violated international law. UNCLOS to be specific. Unlike the United States, the United Kingdom ratified UNCLOS (altough the U.S. does recognize it as a codification of customary international law). By ratification the British incorporated UNCLOS into their own legal framework, in effect turning it into U.K. Law.

So did somalia ratify it?

Offline mechanic

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Re: Video: Royal Marines capture and sink pirate vessel
« Reply #74 on: June 09, 2009, 01:01:23 AM »
Die hard i can understand why you think this will set a dangerous precident for the future of shipping. But really it was a very small boat. I think the Somalis are happy to have their lives.
And I don't know much, but I do know this. With a golden heart comes a rebel fist.