Video: Royal Marines capture and sink pirate vessel

[Angus]

News update from those waters. Those poor Somalis...
http://www.mbl.is/mm/frettir/erlent/2009/06/14/herskip_nato_bjargar_sjomonnum/

The video should start by itself.

[strong10]

Awesome video!!    Surprised they let the other boat live..  It took a lot of shots to take that thing out but I bet they were missing on purpose just to fire off more rounds as I would have done.  Must be the current UN doctrine for the ships operating in that area not to sink 'potential fishing boats.' 
   This pirate problem probably persists because of the corrupt Somali government.  I bet the pirate leaders are paying off the officials not to intervene. 
  It's strange how law and righteousness aren't the same yet you are taught this growing up.  If my kids ask "Daddy, why did the navy guys blow up those guys' boat?"  Well, should I tell them they the world is complicated and there are multiple ways to look at it?  How many perspectives are there?  A few are
-The lawyers
-The lawyers supposed 'any law abiding citizen in the world' person they like to talk about. 
-The criminal who dislikes laws and any new law that would limit their potential crimes
-The pirates who are trolling for victims and got caught but claim they are innocent
-The unemployed guys armed with expensive military hardware in a poverty stricken nation cruising around with 2 boats burning gas at the hourly rate of 1 Somalias' average yearly income,  but you can't 'prove' I was doing anything wrong guys.  These guys aren't that bright though exposing themselves in an area known for pirates subjecting their equipment to seizure and destruction.  They are the ones in the video, right? lol       
-People who have been 'wronged' by authority because they were arrested or caught in a crime and they believe that laws are only out there to suppress innocent people like themselves.
-The Subaru drivers who hate authority
-The victims of these pirates who are held captive away from their families for months and even years..
-There are more.. getting bored though   

Yeah, I'll think I'll skip the legal mumbo jumbo since I havent seen Legally Blonde in awhile and just explain that these are bad men who were looking to jump onto a boat that wasn't theirs, steal it and kidnap everyone aboard.    
I have had my boat illegally searched before and I know the feeling, but I had nothing illegal onboard and I wasn't doing anything illegal.  Yeah I was very upset but I knew it would be cleared up.     

BTW: What is rule #2 and #4?  Where are these rules found?  thanks ahead of time 
 
 
 

[mechanic]

As far as I know possession of such photographic material is a crime. Carrying a screwdriver and a pair of wire cutters is not. And yes, even if the man in question is a known, but innocent pedophile he should be able to live wherever he wants as long as he does not commit any crimes. Innocent until proved guilty is the cornerstone of civilized law.

Not in reality. Some of the people round here would burn his house down given half the chance. Some of the young idiots round would burn your house down just for a laugh. Kiddy fiddlers dont stand a chance in a closed community and the law will turn a blind eye in many cases when the people take action. You can't stop people taking the law into their own hands. Sure someone might go to jail after a crime is commited, but you can't stop it happening unless you act first with reasonable doubt.

In the case of the child abuser and these 'fishermen' the evidence is more than strong enough to take action and avoid the possibility of crime. Yes, it all sounds very Orwell. He was an outstanding prophet. While the obvious negative sides of that lack of freedom may, on the surface, seem unjust, it is well that convicted child molesters don't live near schools and that desperate looking men with an arsenal don't hang around shipping lanes.

If you ignore all else in this reply, please contemplate my two questions.

1) If a convicted child molester who has served his time and been released without re offending offered to look after your kids would you accept or would you be most predjudiced in your reaction and send him packing despite not proving him guilty?

2) If you were sailing on a cargo ship that had one .22 rifle and a few night sticks and were approached by a group of somalis in a fast boat armed with RPGs, Kalashnikovs and grappling hooks, would you assume they must be well armed fishermen out on a jolly jaunt untill they killed you or would you watermelon yourself right away?

[Angus]

A small and fast boat, with lots of crew, lots of arms, and no fishing gear = Pirates.
A merchant vessel full of goods on cruise = not pirates.
A military vessel under a nation's flag = not pirates.

Anyway, the last deed of a military vessel down there was to rescue a drifting vessel that had been hit by pirates.

Screw them 

[Die Hard]

Mechanic, I specifically mentioned innocent pedophile in my post. You however twist that into "child abuser" and make an absurd premise to frame your loaded first question. Your second question is equally absurd and loaded, and neither argument addresses the law, only emotion.

A person convicted of sexually assaulting a child has proved himself unable to suppress his perverted sexual desires and should never be released unless deemed safe. The only way to do that now that I'm aware of is castration; a voluntary option for sex offenders in some european countries I believe. A pedophile who has never committed a sex crime is a free man with every right to live where he wants. If members of the local community commit crimes against him the justice system should punish them. Your assertion that "the law will turn a blind eye" is just another example of law enforcement exceeding its authority. This innocent man would be fully within his rights (in my neighborhood at least) to defend his life and property against a lynch mob, with lethal force if necessary, and if I were his neighbor I would help him. There is no excuse for vigilantism. A better question would be, if you know or suspect there is a pedophile in your neighborhood why would you stay and raise children there?

I would never find myself aboard a ship off the coast of Somalia or anywhere close with only a .22, and I would not open fire on the Somali vessel unless attacked first.

[Apeotomy]

A small and fast boat, with lots of crew, lots of arms, and no fishing gear = Pirates.

That does not equate to beeing a pirate. That equates to nothing.

A person whom illegally boards another vessel = pirate

[Die Hard]

A small and fast boat, with lots of crew, lots of arms, and no fishing gear = Pirates.

Pirates?

[mechanic]

Mechanic, I specifically mentioned innocent pedophile in my post. You however twist that into "child abuser" and make an absurd premise to frame your loaded first question. Your second question is equally absurd and loaded, and neither argument addresses the law, only emotion.

[snip]

excuse the snip!

 I am sorry I do not know of any innocent pedofiles. Planning to murder someone and being found out will often still lead to criminal charges and some serious bird (even if you were not going to actualy do it). A person who takes sexual pleasure through minors as a preference is guilty of being a pedofile no matter if they physically act on an innocent child, or just views it thinking they will never slip that far..

As to my second question. You did not answer at all, you changed the parameters of the question to say you would be better armed. I asked what if you were not. You must surely be able to stand in another's shoes and answer that question fairly. On the other hand, there is an alternative answer to question 2. Laugh. The RN wont shoot you for that.
Yet.
 

[Die Hard]

excuse the snip!

 I am sorry I do not know of any innocent pedofiles. Planning to murder someone and being found out will often still lead to criminal charges and some serious bird (even if you were not going to actualy do it). A person who takes sexual pleasure through minors as a preference is guilty of being a pedofile no matter if they physically act on an innocent child, or just views it thinking they will never slip that far..

You just supplant one crime for another; a pedophile can suppress his sexuality just like a homosexual or heterosexual can. Just as there are homosexual and heterosexual persons that can't control their sexual urges. Surely there must be many pedophiles living normal lives that never watch illegal pornography or abuse children. If you think the mere fact that they think about it makes them criminal, then I consider you a greater threat to society than they are.

As to my second question. You did not answer at all, you changed the parameters of the question to say you would be better armed. I asked what if you were not. You must surely be able to stand in another's shoes and answer that question fairly. On the other hand, there is an alternative answer to question 2. Laugh. The RN wont shoot you for that.
Yet.
 

Ha ha ha... There, happy?

Leading questions like that are frowned upon in my profession, and does not serve to resolve anything. If I must answer the question: I'd probably use the .22 and any other improvised weapon I could find. .22 kills, and a few molotovs wouldn't be too hard too make. Come to think of it, the situation is very similar to a medieval siege in miniature.

[thrila]

Diehard, am i supposed to mistake a british rib with a white ensign as a pirate vessel?

Apeotomoy, i've been through this before, a vessel does not need to have commited an act of piracy to be deemed a pirate vessel. 

I drive a car, I am a getaway driver? I own a gun, I am a robber? I own fertilizer, I am a bomber?

These are not in context, is not one single factor, but a multitude of factors without a reasonable explantion.

[Die Hard]

Diehard, am i supposed to mistake a british rib with a white ensign as a pirate vessel?

None of those gunboats were pirates, and I'm sure the Iranians won't mind the legal excuse. Luckily the U.N. decreed that the current sate of affairs does not establish customary international law.

Apeotomoy, i've been through this before, a vessel does not need to have commited an act of piracy to be deemed a pirate vessel.

Yes it does. However, the U.N. has decreed a special dispensation from international law allowing warships to disarm suspected pirates, but they have to let them go unless it can be proved that they have committed acts of piracy. We've been through this several times, try to keep up.

[mechanic]

You just supplant one crime for another; a pedophile can suppress his sexuality just like a homosexual or heterosexual can. Just as there are homosexual and heterosexual persons that can't control their sexual urges. Surely there must be many pedophiles living normal lives that never watch illegal pornography or abuse children. If you think the mere fact that they think about it makes them criminal, then I consider you a greater threat to society than they are.

To be quite blunt with you sir, this whole quote entirely worries me. 'Living normal lives' and 'pedofile' should not grace the same sentance. Forgive me using closely related metaphors, again.

If I think about murdering someone at some point I am not a murderer, just human. If I was to think at some point, sexualy, about an underage person, i should be ashamed.... but not a pedofile, only human.
 To choose either of these crimes as a preference. To think about something more than once. To reafirm those thoughts into real documentation (read:evidence), or to act on them makes me a murderer or pedofile.

Lets go with one of your other (you surplant one sexuality for another) sexuality based references (almost like pedofiles, hetrosexuals and homosexuals are being classed in teh same genre? heavens above. straight and gay. Murder and child molesting. get it right). If a person was to sleep with the same sex once in a lifetime then remain purely hetro till they die, they are not gay. Possibly a little confused at some point or maybe just curious, but clearly not gay.

 To save an unpleasant topic progressing I will tailor my first question to your way of looking at things.

1)Would you let an 'innocent pedofile' look after your kids?

Ha ha ha... There, happy?

yeah, a little bit happier.

Leading questions like that are frowned upon in my profession, and does not serve to resolve anything. If I must answer the question: I'd probably use the .22 and any other improvised weapon I could find. .22 kills, and a few molotovs wouldn't be too hard too make. Come to think of it, the situation is very similar to a medieval siege in miniature.

I strongly suspect your profession is a defence attorney. Please correct me.

fun times!

[Die Hard]

To be quite blunt with you sir, this whole quote entirely worries me. 'Living normal lives' and 'pedofile' should not grace the same sentance. Forgive me using closely related metaphors, again.

If I think about murdering someone at some point I am not a murderer, just human. If I was to think at some point, sexualy, about an underage person, i should be ashamed.... but not a pedofile, only human.
 To choose either of these crimes as a preference. To think about something more than once. To reafirm those thoughts into real documentation (read:evidence), or to act on them makes me a murderer or pedofile.

I think this is a simple misunderstanding: The term "pedophile" is a medical term describing a person who is suffering from pedophilia; a psychological disorder in which an adult is sexually attracted to children. A person who has committed the heinous act of sexually abusing a child is a child molester. The two terms are not mutually inclusive; a pedophile may or may not commit the crime of child molestation, and a child molester may or may not be a pedophile. According to the Mayo Clinic, pedophiles make up 65% of child molestation offenders. In law enforcement and legal circles the term "predatory pedophile" is used to refer specifically to pedophiles who engage in sexual activity with minors. The term emphasizes that child sexual abuse consists of conduct chosen by the perpetrator.

Lets go with one of your other (you surplant one sexuality for another) sexuality based references (almost like pedofiles, hetrosexuals and homosexuals are being classed in teh same genre? heavens above. straight and gay. Murder and child molesting. get it right). If a person was to sleep with the same sex once in a lifetime then remain purely hetro till they die, they are not gay. Possibly a little confused at some point or maybe just curious, but clearly not gay.

The medical terms heterosexual, homosexual and pedophilia refers to sexual attraction. A homosexual person can lead a completely "hetro" life and never have any sexual contact with the same sex, but he/she would still be a homosexual. If you consistently want to have sex with other men you're a homo, regardless of if you act on your desires or not.

To save an unpleasant topic progressing I will tailor my first question to your way of looking at things.

1)Would you let an 'innocent pedofile' look after your kids?

Nope. How that pertains to piracy however, I don't know.

I strongly suspect your profession is a defence attorney. Please correct me.

Litigation. Insurance mostly though I don't work much these days.

[strong10]

The post is Re: Video: Royal Marines capture and sink pirate vessel

You guys have hijacked the thread.  Diehard brought up 'innocent pedophile' as an example which is very tasteless since he knew emotions would be raised.  He need's to post this material somewhere else.  This thread has digressed from innocent pirates to innocent pedophiles, very disgusting and tasteless to use as an example for anything.  You should be ashamed of yourself of only being able to use that as an example.  Get back on topic.           

[Die Hard]

I did not bring it up, Swoop did in a direct question to me. Get your facts straight.