Author Topic: Idea for new plane  (Read 1237 times)

Offline ZenDragon

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Idea for new plane
« on: June 08, 2009, 12:51:57 PM »
How about the P-61... Rolled off the production line at the tail end of the war. Only 13 were accepted by the air force before the end. From what I've read it seems like it could be a decent addition.

Offline moot

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Re: Idea for new plane
« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2009, 12:53:59 PM »
Too little historical significance and part of a section of the planeset that's already too complete compared to other sections for the P-61 to be added anytime soon.  The F7F, F8F, P51H, and a couple of others are in the same situation for now.
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Offline LLogann

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Re: Idea for new plane
« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2009, 12:57:01 PM »
It's what you haven't read sir..........  The rules for addition.  They STINK!!!  LOL   But they are there, and we must follow them. 

From what I've read it seems like it could be a decent addition.

I agree with you BTW.............   :salute
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Offline Motherland

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Re: Idea for new plane
« Reply #3 on: June 08, 2009, 01:00:26 PM »
Are you sure only 13 served in WWII? I thought it was more than that.

The F7F, F8F, P51H, and a couple of others are in the same situation for now.
No... none of those aircraft saw any combat at all in WWII. They're in a completely different boat than the P61.

Offline moot

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Re: Idea for new plane
« Reply #4 on: June 08, 2009, 01:28:03 PM »
I'm simplifying so I dont sound too anal for his well meaning wish but.. The P61 is a late war US plane with little historical significance.  So it has to contend with the number of planes from the rest of the war (early/mid war fans), the other plane sets (Russian/Japanese/Italian/etc fans), and historical significance (scenarios and the like).  It has a real combat record but all things considered it's in the same ballpark as the F7F F8F and 51H.  Which IIRC did combat sorties, even if they never made contact.
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Offline 5PointOh

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Re: Idea for new plane
« Reply #5 on: June 08, 2009, 02:31:04 PM »
Little info about the P-61...I love it, but we won't get it for a long long time :(





The P-61A was the first production version of the Black Widow. The first P-61A-1-NO rolled off the production line in October 1943.

It differed from the experimental and service-test aircraft in having a stronger framework structure for the pilot's, radar observer's and gunner's canopies.Tests with the YP-61 had uncovered the fact that the greenhouse and tail cone were so weak that they could actually implode under the pressure built up during high-speed dives. This strengthening eliminated the smooth flow of the greenhouse and created a sharper and more abrupt change in angle in that area.

The welded magnesium alloy booms of the prototypes were replaced by more conventional aluminum alloy booms, since they were less expensive and easier to manufacture.

Unlike the earlier XP-61 and YP-61 aircraft which were painted flat black, the P-61A was painted standard Army olive drab overall.

Only the first thirty-seven of the 45 P-61A-1s were actually equipped with the dorsal turrets. In fact, more than half of all P-61As built actually had this turret deleted. One reason for this omission was that the General Electric remotely-controlled turret mechanism was urgently needed for the B-29 program. However, the primary reason was the occurrence of severe aerodynamic buffeting when the turret was being either elevated or rotated in azimuth during flight. Many flight-test hours were spent in trying to solve this problem, but it was never completely eliminated. In fact, this problem was often so severe that many P-61As in the field had the four 0.50-inch machine guns in the top turret permanently locked into the forward-firing position, being fired only by the pilot, with the gunner having no control at all. In many cases, the top turret was completely removed from the aircraft, and the cavity left behind by the deletion of the gun turret was filled up by an extra fuel tank and was faired over. In a few cases, the turret mechanism was completely removed from the aircraft and the four dorsal machine guns were secured in the upper portion of the turret cavity and covered by a nonstandard turret cover. Some of these modifications were made in the field, but others were made at forward depots before the aircraft were delivered to their operational squadrons.

Since the gunner of these re-equipped Black Widows now had no guns that he could fire, he was sometimes left at home when these planes went out on operational missions, and many Black Widow operational missions carried only two crew members--the pilot and the radar operator. However, on other occasions, the gunner was nevertheless included on operational missions, if only to act as another pair of eyes.

Most of the P-61A-1-NOs went to the USAAF night fighter squadrons in the Pacific. The 6th Night Fighter Squadron was the first to receive the new fighter.

The P-61 was quite docile despite its size. Full control of the aircraft could be maintained with one engine out, even when fully loaded. The plane could be slow-rolled into a dead engine, a maneuver which would ordinarily have been suicidal.

P-61A-1-NO 42-5496 was supplied to the RAF for tests. It was in British hands between March 21, 1944 and February 22, 1945. The RAF was not too enthusiastic about its performance, and never bothered to order any Black Widows for its own use, finding that the night fighter version of the de Havilland Mosquito was more than adequate for the task at hand.

The P-61A-5-NO production block introduced a change in engines. These planes were powered by a pair of 2250 hp R-2800-65 engines, replacing the 2000 hp R-2800-10s. Maximum speed was 322 mph at sea level, 355 mph at 10,000 feet, and 369 mph at 20,000 feet. Range (clean) was 415 miles at 319 mph at 20,000 feet and 1010 miles at 224 mph at 10,000 feet. Range with maximum external fuel was 1900 miles at 221 mph at 10,000 feet. An altitude of 5000 feet could be reached in 2.2 minutes, and 15,000 feet in 7.6 minutes. Service ceiling was 33,100 feet. Weights were 20,965 pounds empty, 27,600 pounds normal loaded, and 32,400 pounds maximum. Dimensions were wingspan 66 feet 0 inches, length 48 feet 11 inches, height 14 feet 2 inches, and wing area 664 square feet.

The P-61A-10-NO production block had a pair of water-injected R-2800-65 Double Wasps. This model was the first to carry the shiny-black paint job which was to be the trademark of the Black Widow. Previous production P-61As had conventional olive-drab paint jobs. 120 P-61A-10-NOs were built. 20 of these were modified prior to delivery by the addition of a pylon on the outer wing panels to carry either a pair of 265 gallon fuel tanks (later 310 gallon tanks were fitted) or a pair of 1600-pound bombs. These planes were redesignated P-61A-11.

Serials of the P-61As were as follows:

42-5485/5529    Northrop P-61A-1-NO Black Widow
42-5530/5564    Northrop P-61A-5-NO Black Widow
         5559 was modified as XP-61D
42-5565/5604    Northrop P-61A-10-NO Black Widow
         5587 was modified as XP-61D
42-5605/5606    Northrop P-61A-11-NO Black Widow
42-5607    Northrop P-61A-10-NO Black Widow
42-5608/5614     Northrop P-61A-11-NO Black Widow
42-5615/5634    Northrop P-61A-10-NO Black Widow
42-39348/39374   Northrop P-61A-10-NO Black Widow
42-39375/39384    Northrop P-61A-11-NO Black Widow
42-39385/39386    Northrop P-61A-10-NO Black Widow
42-39387    Northrop P-61A-11-NO Black Widow
42-39388/39397    Northrop P-61A-10-NO Black Widow

Sources:



Northrop P-61 Black Widow--The Complete History and Combat Record, Garry R. Pape, John M. Campbell and Donna Campbell, Motorbooks International, 1991.


The American Fighter, Enzo Angelucci and Peter Bowers, Orion, 1987.


Warplanes of the Second World War, Fighters, Volume 4, William Green, 1964.


American Combat Planes, Ray Wagner, Third Enlarged Edition, Doubleday, 1982.


United States Military Aircraft since 1909, Gordon Swanborough and Peter M. Bowers, Smithsonian, 1989.
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Offline 5PointOh

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Re: Idea for new plane
« Reply #6 on: June 08, 2009, 02:32:04 PM »
Wartime service of the P-61:

Pacific Theatre
The first operational use of the P-61 Black Widow was in the Pacific theatre. The 418th, 419th and 421st Night Fighter Squadrons shipped out to the Southwest Pacific Area late in 1943. The first operational mission by Black Widow took place out of Saipan on June 24, 1944, and the first kill was made on June 30, when a Black Widow piloted by 6th Night Fighter Squadron members 2nd Lt. Dale F. Haversom and radar operator Raymond P. Mooney shot down a Betty bomber. The Black Widows flew numerous missions against Japanese night intruders, which were a real nuisance to American forces and which up to this time had been virtually immune from interception. On typical missions, the Black Widow would be directed to the vicinity of its target by ground based radar. The onboard A/I radar under the control of the radar operator would then be used to direct the pilot to close with and intercept the the enemy. As soon as the Black Widow had gotten close enough to its target to make a visual identification, the guns would be aimed and fired by the pilot or by the gunner. The appearance of the Black Widow in the night skies over the Pacific was a rude and unpleasant surprise for these night raiders.

One of the primary missions of the Black Widow squadrons was the protection of B-29 bases on Saipan against night attacks, and these aircraft flew combat air patrols and interception missions. They also aided in the rescue of many crippled and lost B-29s trying to return from raids on Japan.

Black Widows were also based in New Guinea and later in the Philippines. In the Philippines, Black Widows flew night intruder missions against Japanese airfields and ground installations. The Black Widow also participated in the invasion of Iwo Jima and Okinawa.


China-Burma-India Theatre
The Black Widow also served in the China-Burma-India theatre. The first Black Widow kill in that theater took place on October 30, 1944, when a Kunming-based Black Widow flown by Capt. Robert R. Scott and Charles W. Phillips of the 426th Night Fighter Squadron shot down a Japanese twin-engined aircraft. The initial mission of the China-based Black Widows was to destroy Japanese night intruders, but as enemy nighttime flying ceased, the Black Widows went over to night intruder missions, attacking Japanese ground installations in China and Burma.


European Theatre
The first P-61 arrived in Europe on May 23, 1944. The Black Widows were initially based in England, and their first assignment was to chase night-flying V-1 "buzz bombs". The Black Widows would be vectored to intercept approaching V-1s by ground control. Since the V-1 was a little faster than the P-61, the Black Widow had to approach the V-1 from behind and go into a slight dive in order to catch up with it. The first Black Widow V-1 "kill" took place on July 16, 1944, credited to pilot Herman Ernst and radar operator Edward Kopsel of the 422nd Night Fighter Squadron. One of the greatest dangers involved in killing V-1s was the possibility of getting too close to the flying bomb when one fired at it, running the risk of damage to your own plane if the bomb exploded when hit.

After D-Day, many Black Widows moved to France. Although several interceptions of night-flying German aircraft were made, most Black Widow missions were night intruder missions against trains, armor, and other ground targets


Black Widow Wartime Units
Wartime units using the P-61 included:



6th Night Fighter Squadron, Seventh Air Force. Received Black Widows in May 1944. Served in Guadalcanal, New Guinea, Saipan, Iwo Jima. Inactivated February 1947 and reactivated as 339th All Weather Squadron.


414th Night Fighter Squadron, Twelfth Air Force. Received Black Widows in December 1944. Served in Algeria, Sardinia, Corsica, Italy, plus detachment to Belgium. Inactivated August 1947 and reformed as 319th All Weather Squadron.


415th Night Fighter Squadron, Twelfth Air Force. Received Black Widow in March 1945. Served in Italy, Corsica, France, Germany. Inactived September 1947.


416th Night Fighter Squadron, Twelfth Air Force. Received Black Widow in June 1945. Served in Italy, Corsica, France, Germany. Inactived November 1946 and redesignated 2nd Fighter Squadron (All Weather).


417th Night Fighter Squadron, Twelfth Air Force. Received Black Widow in April/May 1945. Served in Italy, Corsica, France, Germany. Inactived November 1946.


418th Night Fighter Squadron, Fifth Air Force. Received Black Widow in September 1944. Served in New Guinea, Philippines. Inactivated February 1947 but reactivated August 1948 as 4th All Weather Squadron.


419th Night Fighter Squadron, Thirteenth Air Force. Received Black Widow in May 1944. Served in New Guinea, Philippines. Inactivated February 1947.


421st Night Fighter Squadron, Fifth Air Force. Received Black Widow June 1944. Served in New Guinea, Philippines. Inactivated February 1947. Reactivated august 1948 as 68th All Weather Squadron.


422nd Night Fighter Squadron, Ninth Air Force. Received Black Widow May 1944. Served in England, France, Belgium, Germany. Inactivated September 1945.


425th Night Fighter Squadron, Ninth Air Force. Served in England, France, and Germany. Inactivated August 1947.


426th Night Fighter Squadron, Fourteenth Air Force. Received Black Widow September 1944. Served in India, China to protect B-29 bases from attack. Inactivated November 1945.


427th Night Fighter Squadron. Served briefly in Italy then moved to India, Burma, China. Received Black Widow in August 1944. Inactivated October 1945.


547th Night Fighter Squadron, Fifth Air Force. Activated March 1944 with P-61. Served in New Guinea, Philippines, Ie Shima, Japan. Inactivated February 1946.


548th Night Fighter Squadron, Seventh Air Force. Activated April 1944 with P-61. Served in Saipan, Iwo Jima, Ie Shima. Inactivated December 1945. Reactivated in 1969 as the 548th Combat Training Squadron. Still in service.


549th Night Fighter Squadron, Seventh Air Force. Activated May 1944 with P-61. Served on Saipan, Iwo Jima. Inactivated February 1946.


550th Night Fighter Squadron. Activated June 1944. Received first Black Widows January 1945. Served in New Guinea, Philippines. Inactivated January 1946.
The Black Widow did not rack up an impressive list of kills. Its entry into the war was relatively late, at a time when the Allies had already established almost complete control of the air. Consequently, enemy aircraft were at this time relatively few and far between, even at night. Nevertheless, there were a few Black Widow aces. In accounting for Black Widow aces, there is a complication since the aircraft had more than one crew member. Does only the pilot get credit for the kill, or does the radar operator get credit as well? What happens if the pilot has had different radar operators on different missions? What if a radar operator has had more than one pilot? In the European theatre, there was an additional complication because some of the Black Widow kills were against unmanned V-1 'buzz bombs". Should these V-1s kills be included in the count? If V-1s are included, and if both pilots and radar operators are to be given credit for the kill, in Europe, there were two sets of pilots and radar operators who achieved six victories. These were the pair 1st Lt. Herman E. Ernst (pilot) and 2nd Lt. Edward H. Kopsel (radar operator) and the pair Lt. Paul A. Smith (pilot) and Lt. Robert E. Tierney (radar operator). One V-1 is included in the count for each pair of crew members. All of these crew members were from the 418th Night Fighter Squadron. The leading Black Widow crew in the Pacific was the pair Major Carrol C. Smith (pilot) and Lt. Philip B. Porter (radar operator) of the 418th Night Fighter Squadron, who destroyed five Japanese aircraft.

So far as I am aware, the Black Widow never served with any foreign air forces.

Sources:



Northrop P-61 Black Widow--The Complete History and Combat Record, Garry R. Pape, John M. Campbell and Donna Campbell, Motorbooks International, 1991.


The American Fighter, Enzo Angelucci and Peter Bowers, Orion, 1987.


Warplanes of the Second World War, Fighters, Volume 4, William Green, 1964.


American Combat Planes, Ray Wagner, Third Enlarged Edition, Doubleday, 1982.


United States Military Aircraft since 1909, Gordon Swanborough and Peter M. Bowers, Smithsonian, 1989.


Northrop P-61 Black Widow, Warren Thompson, Wings of Fame Vol 15, 1999.


E-mail from Eric Shulenberger on 548th NFS.


E-mail from James Truman on 547th NFS, which is still active as the 547th Intelligence Squadron
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Offline Baumer

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Re: Idea for new plane
« Reply #7 on: June 08, 2009, 02:43:09 PM »
While I agree with Moot, I would like to point out that there were significantly more than 13 P-61's accepted and used before the wars end.

The following squadrons claimed kills with the P-61 (over 100 total) before the end of the war.

  • 6th NFS- 16 Kills
  • 414th NFS- 5 Kills
  • 418th NFS- 18 Kills
  • 419th NFS- 5 Kills
  • 421st NFS- 13 Kills
  • 422nd NFS- 48 Kills
  • 423rd NFS- 13 Kills
  • 426th NFS- 6 Kills
  • 547th NFS- 5 Kills
  • 548th NFS- 5 Kills
  • 549th NFS- 1 Kill

There's a good book called "Queen of the Midnight Skies" by Garry Pape & Ronald Harrison that covers the history of the P-61 very well.

However, as Moot previously stated there's not much of a case for adding it at this time. Especially not until some form of night fighting is truly possible.
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Offline Masherbrum

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Re: Idea for new plane
« Reply #8 on: June 08, 2009, 03:44:35 PM »
P-61 deserves a place in AH.
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Offline waystin2

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Re: Idea for new plane
« Reply #9 on: June 08, 2009, 03:52:36 PM »
P-61 deserves a place in AH.

I concur.  It does not matter that it was a night fighter in WWII.  The physical capabilities of any given aircraft are more important than it's actual use in WWII.  I could care less if it was flown at high noon.  I would love to get behind the stick on this bird, and do some flying.  Who would not? :rock

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Offline Noir

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Re: Idea for new plane
« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2009, 04:03:22 PM »
erm.....its ugly !
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Offline TonyJoey

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Re: Idea for new plane
« Reply #11 on: June 08, 2009, 04:06:55 PM »
erm.....its ugly !

Tell that to those 4 sparkly things pointing at you on top. :aok

Offline Karnak

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Re: Idea for new plane
« Reply #12 on: June 08, 2009, 04:51:42 PM »
I wouldn't object to it, it is a neat aircraft, but it is much lower on the priority list than a great many other aircraft and tanks.
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Offline Treize69

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Re: Idea for new plane
« Reply #13 on: June 08, 2009, 05:21:21 PM »
I'd love to see all the ackstarring that would go one with the P-61- 4x 20mm cannons up front at a quad-.50 turret up top?

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Offline Nemisis

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Re: Idea for new plane
« Reply #14 on: June 08, 2009, 07:23:43 PM »
Zen, I think it woud be a safe bet to not suggest anything that didn't see more than around 6 months combat MINIMUM and only if significant numbers were used and I mean SIGNIFICANT. I'm kinda running into the numbers problem with the Vultee A35 Vengance topic I started.

I considered adding this plane instead of the Vengance but then saw the numbers and other crap like that. I'm sorry, honestly, it's a good idea but it probably won't make it. I would fly it a lot, I mean HOLY CRAP that thing is a real cannon god. Omg, if we got that then I would feel sorry for the next rook or knitwit that gives me even half a chance to blow his wings off.
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