Author Topic: Long-lost World War II sub found off Swedish coast  (Read 2905 times)

Offline Rich46yo

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Re: Long-lost World War II sub found off Swedish coast
« Reply #30 on: June 15, 2009, 12:32:05 AM »

(Just as the USA would have until Pearl), [/quote] err no. We had cut off trade with Japan due to the barbarity of their Asian empire building. Remember? We froze all the axis money, and trade, long before Pearl harbor as well. In fact it took an Act of Congress to allow the cash and carry Lend Lease to Britian because we had legislation in place that prevented trade with warring parties.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2009, 12:33:44 AM by Rich46yo »
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Offline Die Hard

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Re: Long-lost World War II sub found off Swedish coast
« Reply #31 on: June 15, 2009, 12:52:58 AM »
Not quite right Rich, America continued to trade with Germany after the German annexation of the Sudetenland and invasion of Czechoslovakia in 1938, and the invasion of Poland in 1939. Despite the British blockade several U.S. companies, such as Ford, continued to do business with the Germans until war was declared between America and Germany.
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Offline Angus

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Re: Long-lost World War II sub found off Swedish coast
« Reply #32 on: June 15, 2009, 03:49:05 AM »
"We froze all the axis money, and trade, long before Pearl harbor as well. In fact it took an Act of Congress to allow the cash and carry Lend Lease to Britian because we had legislation in place that prevented trade with warring parties."

I have not been able to find a source about German money and trade being frozen, but have been looking. However Germany didn't have a particularly good chance of picking anything up due to the RN's embargo.
But Japan, - that I know.
The lend lease act as well. It made it through congress with a stiff resistance and was won with few votes. That was in 1941 if I recall right.

And DieHard, - last time I knew, Lulea is linked to the Swedish rail network, from there it reaches all the way south to Skane and the ports in the south. Sweden spans amazingly though, - from the southern point to the Northern the distance equals the distance from the southern point to Rome.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Rich46yo

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Re: Long-lost World War II sub found off Swedish coast
« Reply #33 on: June 15, 2009, 11:27:38 AM »
June 1941 if I remember right. Thats when we embargoed everything against Japan except for food. But the real killer was the oil, ore, scrap metal embargo. Its also the same month we froze German and Italian assets. If you'd like I could point you to a search engine as I'm sure these facts are all over the web. Roosevelt was overwhelmingly anti-Axis and by that time so were most Americans. Dont forget that we had a Alien registration act that required all foreign born Germans to register and restricted many of their rights too. While we didn't put them in internment camps en-masse many thousands of foreign born Germans and German Americans did indeed spend the war in camps.

Thats the first I ever heard about Ford Motor Company doing business with Hitler like that. I know both admired the other, at least in the early years. If any of you have any facts and figures to support your claims please post them.

BTW The Lend Lease act passed by 260 to 165 in the House and 60 to 31 in the Senate. The Nays were "nay" because they didn't want anything to do with European wars so dont even suggest they voted "nay" because they were Pro-Nazi.

Yaknow at the Dawn of WW-ll many Euro-nations owed America a ton of money. By then Finland had already defaulted on her loans.

As far as German/American trade, and I dont have exact figures in front of me, but no munitions or weapons could be sold. And from 1 Sept. '39 onward to June 1941 the Germans would have had to transport their own goods thru the Brit controlled north Atlantic, "remember no Yank ship would transport for warring parties in that period". So how much trade could have really taken place? No arms, no Loans, and German merchant marine would have had to hump their own home.

And what the Hitler regime was really going to mean didn't start materializing until Nov. '38 Kristallnacht, 1939 Poland. Our different "neutrality acts", and there were 4 or 5 of them, progressively became more and more anti-Nazi and more and more Pro-France/England. Of course by the time of Lend Lease all pretense was over. America was firmly behind her eventual allies.

I would say the over-running of France was the real turning point in the opinion of the American Public. Before that we both hated the thought of getting dragged into another war in Europe, and like most of the Europeans, thought a peaceful solution was still possible.

The fact is that Germany simply didn't need anything America had anyways. They had access to everything their war machine needed, even after invading Poland. In fact right up to the morning of Barbarossa the trainloads of easterns goods, food stuffs, oil, were still heading into Germany. In fact Germany was drowning in Eastern bloc oil pre-Barbarossa. Almost all her iron ore was supplied by Sweden, Germany was herself a huge coal producer. So again? What were these great Anglo/German trade products?

Now Japan was different. We had already chased Japan out of China in the '20s with an oil/metal embargo. The Jap economy was enslaved to Yank exports.
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Offline Masherbrum

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Re: Long-lost World War II sub found off Swedish coast
« Reply #34 on: June 15, 2009, 12:14:20 PM »
June 1941 if I remember right. Thats when we embargoed everything against Japan except for food. But the real killer was the oil, ore, scrap metal embargo. Its also the same month we froze German and Italian assets. If you'd like I could point you to a search engine as I'm sure these facts are all over the web. Roosevelt was overwhelmingly anti-Axis and by that time so were most Americans. Dont forget that we had a Alien registration act that required all foreign born Germans to register and restricted many of their rights too. While we didn't put them in internment camps en-masse many thousands of foreign born Germans and German Americans did indeed spend the war in camps.

Thats the first I ever heard about Ford Motor Company doing business with Hitler like that. I know both admired the other, at least in the early years. If any of you have any facts and figures to support your claims please post them.

BTW The Lend Lease act passed by 260 to 165 in the House and 60 to 31 in the Senate. The Nays were "nay" because they didn't want anything to do with European wars so dont even suggest they voted "nay" because they were Pro-Nazi.

Yaknow at the Dawn of WW-ll many Euro-nations owed America a ton of money. By then Finland had already defaulted on her loans.

As far as German/American trade, and I dont have exact figures in front of me, but no munitions or weapons could be sold. And from 1 Sept. '39 onward to June 1941 the Germans would have had to transport their own goods thru the Brit controlled north Atlantic, "remember no Yank ship would transport for warring parties in that period". So how much trade could have really taken place? No arms, no Loans, and German merchant marine would have had to hump their own home.

And what the Hitler regime was really going to mean didn't start materializing until Nov. '38 Kristallnacht, 1939 Poland. Our different "neutrality acts", and there were 4 or 5 of them, progressively became more and more anti-Nazi and more and more Pro-France/England. Of course by the time of Lend Lease all pretense was over. America was firmly behind her eventual allies.

I would say the over-running of France was the real turning point in the opinion of the American Public. Before that we both hated the thought of getting dragged into another war in Europe, and like most of the Europeans, thought a peaceful solution was still possible.

The fact is that Germany simply didn't need anything America had anyways. They had access to everything their war machine needed, even after invading Poland. In fact right up to the morning of Barbarossa the trainloads of easterns goods, food stuffs, oil, were still heading into Germany. In fact Germany was drowning in Eastern bloc oil pre-Barbarossa. Almost all her iron ore was supplied by Sweden, Germany was herself a huge coal producer. So again? What were these great Anglo/German trade products?

Now Japan was different. We had already chased Japan out of China in the '20s with an oil/metal embargo. The Jap economy was enslaved to Yank exports.

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Offline Die Hard

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Re: Long-lost World War II sub found off Swedish coast
« Reply #35 on: June 15, 2009, 03:37:39 PM »
And DieHard, - last time I knew, Lulea is linked to the Swedish rail network, from there it reaches all the way south to Skane and the ports in the south. Sweden spans amazingly though, - from the southern point to the Northern the distance equals the distance from the southern point to Rome.

Your solutions are overly, almost childishly, simplistic. There's a reason why the Swedes built the ore line to Narvik: While Lulea was connected to the rest of the Swedish rail network the ore railway wasn't. Even if the Swedes had connected the two lines he rest of the Swedish rail network could not handle the weight of the heavy ore cars, and even if it could there were no other Swedish ports capable of handling the ore shipments. It took the Swedes more than 20 years to build an efficient ore harbor in Lulea capable of handling one third of the ore mining output. Two thirds of the ore was shipped from Narvik. The LKAB mining company still only has two shipping harbors: Narvik and Lulea.
It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of nonviolence to cover impotence.

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Offline Die Hard

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It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of nonviolence to cover impotence.

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Offline Die Hard

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Re: Long-lost World War II sub found off Swedish coast
« Reply #37 on: June 15, 2009, 11:08:52 PM »
Thats the first I ever heard about Ford Motor Company doing business with Hitler like that. I know both admired the other, at least in the early years. If any of you have any facts and figures to support your claims please post them.

GM and Ford, through their subsidiaries, controlled 70 percent of the German automobile market when war broke out in 1939. Those companies "rapidly retooled themselves to become suppliers of war material to the Germany army," writes Michael Dobbs in the Washington Post.

"When American GIs invaded Europe in June 1944, they did so in jeeps, trucks and tanks manufactured by the Big Three motor companies in one of the largest crash militarization programs ever undertaken," observes Dobbs. "It came as an unpleasant surprise to discover that the enemy was also driving trucks manufactured by Ford and Opel — a 100 percent GM-owned subsidiary — and flying Opel-built warplanes."

"The outbreak of war in September 1939 resulted inevitably in the full conversion by GM and Ford of their Axis plants to the production of military aircraft and trucks," according to a 1974 report printed by the U.S. Senate Judiciary Committee. "On the ground, GM and Ford subsidiaries built nearly 90 percent of the armored ‘mule’ 3-ton half-trucks and more than 70 percent of the Reich’s medium and heavy-duty trucks. These vehicles, according to American intelligence reports, served as ‘the backbone of the German Army transportation system.’"

"General Motors was far more important to the Nazi war machine than Switzerland," says researcher Bradford Snell. "Switzerland was just a repository of looted funds, while GM was an integral part of the German war effort. The Nazis could have invaded Poland and Russia without Switzerland. They could not have done so without GM."

After the German occupation of Czechoslovakia in 1939, GM Chairman Alfred P. Sloan commented that the Nazis’ behavior "should not be considered the business of the management of General Motors." The GM plant in Germany was highly profitable. "We have no right to shut down that plant," Sloan declared.

In 1946 General Electric stood accused of criminal conspiracy with Krupp, a major German munitions firm. Their partnership artificially raised the cost of U.S. defense preparations while helping to subsidize Hitler’s rearmament of Germany. The arrangement continued even after Nazi tanks smashed into Poland. Hitler was getting 12 pounds of tungsten carbide at the price the U.S. government was getting one pound. For every pound of the material sold in the U.S., Hitler through Krupp was getting royalties with which he bought more munitions. In 1940, with Europe at war, Krupp arranged to have its royalties from GE collected by a Swiss go-between. GE, its subsidiaries and company officials were found guilty on five counts of criminal conspiracy with Friederich Krupp A.G. of Essen, Germany.

In 1998 Ford spokesman John Spelich defended the company's decision to maintain business ties with Nazi Germany on the grounds that the U.S. government continued to have diplomatic relations with Berlin up until the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor in December 1941.

It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of nonviolence to cover impotence.

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Offline Rich46yo

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Re: Long-lost World War II sub found off Swedish coast
« Reply #38 on: June 16, 2009, 04:14:46 AM »
There is a law suite underway yes? Or there was?

I'll reply to this later as Im in a rush now. Our companies did business with Japan right up to PH too. Only oil and scrap metals were embargoed from them. Trucks and cars have never been considered munitions or weapons, perhaps they should have been.

Old man Ford was a schmuck. Of that we can agree on, as well as the fact wealthy Industrialists little eyes light up when they hear the word "war". Hitler and his regime went totally out of their way to assure big Industry.

America was just then trying to awaken from a terrible market crash, "as was the rest of the world". No Politician, under such circumstances, would easily chase jobs away. And big industry always danced to their own tune, or tried to.

Besides the Nazis took over the Ford plants during the war.
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Offline Angus

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Re: Long-lost World War II sub found off Swedish coast
« Reply #39 on: June 16, 2009, 05:43:41 AM »
Your solutions are overly, almost childishly, simplistic. There's a reason why the Swedes built the ore line to Narvik: While Lulea was connected to the rest of the Swedish rail network the ore railway wasn't. Even if the Swedes had connected the two lines he rest of the Swedish rail network could not handle the weight of the heavy ore cars, and even if it could there were no other Swedish ports capable of handling the ore shipments. It took the Swedes more than 20 years to build an efficient ore harbor in Lulea capable of handling one third of the ore mining output. Two thirds of the ore was shipped from Narvik. The LKAB mining company still only has two shipping harbors: Narvik and Lulea.

Do you have a comparison of the quantity shipped from Lulea vs Narvik? Since the Baltic freezes over in winter, it would be more logical to use Narvik at winter, - the daylight comes to mind there, - or rather the lack of it. After all, Narvik-Germany goes straight across treacherous waters, and the German surface navy could not muster proper escorts there. But again, they weren't exactly expecting their naval affairs to go...as they did.
Childishly simple? I presume that the vital copper ore also went through Narvik or Lulea. From Falun?
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Angus

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Re: Long-lost World War II sub found off Swedish coast
« Reply #40 on: June 16, 2009, 05:54:02 AM »
Oh, DieHard, - your Post on the GM-OPEl-Krupp etc was very..something. Been looking all over for that. Some may get a knot in the stomach about it I guess, but "Thanks" is my take on that  :aok
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline RipChord929

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Re: Long-lost World War II sub found off Swedish coast
« Reply #41 on: June 16, 2009, 07:02:18 AM »
Great posts.. Henry Ford was a schmuck :rofl :aok 

Isn't it strange when you start looking behind the scenes of
well known WWII history... Shocking stuff!!!

Financial institutions, they are some dirty little buggers aren't
they?  Look closer and you'll find that the, Bank of England, JP
Morgan, Chase Manhatten, BOA, and THE US TREASURY, and
THE ENGISH ROYAL FAMILY, all made major transactions with
the Reichbank right up to early 44... Creepy Huh!!!

With all those ppl dead, just thinking about this angle of WWII
history, Makes me feel dirty!!!  :mad: :mad: :mad:

RC
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"Yeah, a gut bustin, mother lovin, NAVY war!!!"

Offline Die Hard

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Re: Long-lost World War II sub found off Swedish coast
« Reply #42 on: June 16, 2009, 09:35:17 AM »
There is a law suite underway yes? Or there was?

Both Ford and GM were investigated after the war, but any charges were later dropped before trial. Ford was sued by Jewish interest groups in the 1990s, but settled out of court.



I'll reply to this later as Im in a rush now. Our companies did business with Japan right up to PH too. Only oil and scrap metals were embargoed from them. Trucks and cars have never been considered munitions or weapons, perhaps they should have been.

No one specified "munitions or weapons", this is what you asked:

"Thats the first I ever heard about Ford Motor Company doing business with Hitler like that. I know both admired the other, at least in the early years. If any of you have any facts and figures to support your claims please post them."

Consider it answered.



Besides the Nazis took over the Ford plants during the war.

Not until war was declared in December 1941, and even then Ford retained control over its assets and production plants in Vichy-France until 1943. Profits were paid trough Swiss banks.
It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of nonviolence to cover impotence.

-Gandhi

Offline Die Hard

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Re: Long-lost World War II sub found off Swedish coast
« Reply #43 on: June 16, 2009, 09:58:40 AM »
Do you have a comparison of the quantity shipped from Lulea vs Narvik?

In the summer about two thirds of the iron ore was shipped from Narvik. In the winter all the ore was shipped from Narvik. You could do some research on this subject yourself you know.


- the daylight comes to mind there, - or rather the lack of it. After all, Narvik-Germany goes straight across treacherous waters, and the German surface navy could not muster proper escorts there.

Norway has a great seafaring history (I've been on a cruise there, beautiful country), and its coastal shipping lanes were well lit by lighthouses. There were no treacherous waters per se. The only threat was the RAF and RN subs, but by invading Norway and building Luftwaffe bases all along the coast the Germans managed to protect most of its shipping in Norwegian waters.


I presume that the vital copper ore also went through Narvik or Lulea. From Falun?

You presume a lot, but apparently know very little. Why don't you simply research these things yourself?

No. The Swedes didn't export copper ore; they refined the ore in Sweden and exported copper bars, which could easily be transported on common freighters or trains or even trucks.
It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of nonviolence to cover impotence.

-Gandhi

Offline Angus

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Re: Long-lost World War II sub found off Swedish coast
« Reply #44 on: June 16, 2009, 10:31:32 AM »
A part of research is asking...and asking for sources if needed.
I will take your word for this, but stick to my presuming that then the route would have been the one of hugging the coast, since by treacherous waters I rather meant the RAF and RN. Now there were safe ports en route as well, - Bergen, Stavanger, and then the eastbound turn past Kristianssand, or straight to Denmark. (Kristianssand-Hirtshals some 6 - 8 hrs, or carry on after downwards)
I too have been sailing the North Sea, and in 12 on the Beaufort scale. That alone is quite a show, although it gets very ugly in the Denmark Strait which once was my "workplace".  No presuming here though, the North Sea can get very rough.
Now for my "presuming" of copper ore, I must confess it was a tad of a teaser. I knew they exported copper, and that it was needed, there sometimes was a shortage. The route from Falun would be southbound for sure. After all, Sweden has some nice routes from the south leading to Germany. I have sailed those as well, and those would be very much safer vs the RAF. RN...no chance. BTW, Trelleborg-Travemunde would be quicker than the pass of S-Norway past the head of Jutland. (Been on that route as well :D)
It's interesting to put yourself in the boots of the planners who were at this some 70 years ago.



It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)