Author Topic: La-5 armament.  (Read 1859 times)

Offline 1Boner

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La-5 armament.
« on: June 10, 2009, 03:50:00 PM »
In another thread I was reading about the Russian 20mm and 23 mm cannons.

It reminded me that I had read somewhere else about the later production La-5s having 23mm cannons and some sort of anti-armor bombs.

Has anyone else heard of these weapons being used on the La-5 or am I wrong again.
"Life is just as deadly as it looks"  Richard Thompson

"So umm.... just to make sure I have this right.  What you are asking is for the bombers carrying bombs, to stop dropping bombs on the bombs, so the bombers can carry bombs to bomb things with?"  AKP

Offline MachFly

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Re: La-5 armament.
« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2009, 06:06:18 PM »
I heard about bombs
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Offline Noir

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Re: La-5 armament.
« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2009, 09:32:53 AM »
Never heard of 23mm's on the la5.
now posting as SirNuke

Offline Tilt

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Re: La-5 armament.
« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2009, 12:29:20 PM »
Post war La 9 and la 11 had 23mm cannon....the La 5 & 7 had 20mm
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Offline cegull

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Re: La-5 armament.
« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2009, 09:00:29 PM »
Some of the LaGG-3 variants had 23mm cannons that fired through the propeller shaft.  Quite a few of the Rusky planes including fighters had bomb shackles as the Soviets strategy revolved around a lot of ground support. 

Offline 1Boner

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Re: La-5 armament.
« Reply #5 on: June 14, 2009, 06:46:47 PM »
Did a little poking around,just to make sure my memory wasn't as bad as I thought.

I found several articles that backed up my initial statement.

Not to sure how to hook these BBs up with multiple web adress.

So, here are just a few of them:


wwiivehicles.com  ( gives 4 different references for its info.)

military factory.com

Russian warrior.com

aviastar  ( some comments and tech specs)

I also scanned a page from some other site, that mentions the 23mm option on both the La-5 AND La-7.






« Last Edit: June 14, 2009, 06:50:59 PM by 1Boner »
"Life is just as deadly as it looks"  Richard Thompson

"So umm.... just to make sure I have this right.  What you are asking is for the bombers carrying bombs, to stop dropping bombs on the bombs, so the bombers can carry bombs to bomb things with?"  AKP

Offline 1Boner

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Re: La-5 armament.
« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2009, 01:58:05 PM »
No comments?

Okie dokie, off to the wish list, to annoy them over there! :x
"Life is just as deadly as it looks"  Richard Thompson

"So umm.... just to make sure I have this right.  What you are asking is for the bombers carrying bombs, to stop dropping bombs on the bombs, so the bombers can carry bombs to bomb things with?"  AKP

Offline Noir

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Re: La-5 armament.
« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2009, 07:07:34 AM »
well I think your book is plain wrong. The armament was 2xShvaks 20mm which could be loaded with incendiary AP or plain HE, I can scan the book if needed.
now posting as SirNuke

Offline 1Boner

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Re: La-5 armament.
« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2009, 07:44:53 AM »
Well thats the thing.

I've listed above, just a few of the web sites I've found that make the 23mm statements.

So who's wrong?

Do you have something that says they didn"t have 23mm??

I've read some things that don't mention it and Ive read things that do.

"Life is just as deadly as it looks"  Richard Thompson

"So umm.... just to make sure I have this right.  What you are asking is for the bombers carrying bombs, to stop dropping bombs on the bombs, so the bombers can carry bombs to bomb things with?"  AKP

Offline Noir

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Re: La-5 armament.
« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2009, 08:44:13 AM »

now posting as SirNuke

Offline 1Boner

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Re: La-5 armament.
« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2009, 06:10:47 PM »
well I think your book is plain wrong. The armament was 2xShvaks 20mm which could be loaded with incendiary AP or plain HE, I can scan the book if needed.

I scanned those pages from a website, not a book that I own.

In my earlier post, I also listed 4 other websites out of several that I found that coroborated my previous statement.

I find it hard to believe that all those websites are giving bad information.

One of the sites even listed 4 (I believe) different sources for its information.

Could they all be wrong??

I guess anythings possible.

But I guess the same could be said for those sites that neglect to mention the 23mm.
"Life is just as deadly as it looks"  Richard Thompson

"So umm.... just to make sure I have this right.  What you are asking is for the bombers carrying bombs, to stop dropping bombs on the bombs, so the bombers can carry bombs to bomb things with?"  AKP

Offline Noir

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Re: La-5 armament.
« Reply #11 on: June 16, 2009, 06:53:17 PM »
The only russian 23mm I heard of was the VYa on the IL2 that we have ingame. Distracted authors may have copied an inexact source, like how the 109 15mm MG myth was created. The 15mm did exist on the early 109F but as a main centerline cannon.

The writeup on the VYa in wikipedia is not uninteresting. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkov-Yartsev_VYa-23

so is the Shvak writeup http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ShVAK_cannon
« Last Edit: June 16, 2009, 06:55:56 PM by Noir »
now posting as SirNuke

Offline 1Boner

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Re: La-5 armament.
« Reply #12 on: June 16, 2009, 07:36:45 PM »
THE RUSSIAN AMMUNITION PAGE
 
 
 
 
20x99R 20mm ShVAK aircraft cannon, sub-caliber device
 
 
 
This cailber was created by necking up the 12,7x108R case of the 12,7mm ShVAK to 20mm. The idea was to create a new weapon by only changing the barrel.
The 20mm ShVAK cannon was introduced into service in 1936 as armament for aircraft. The Shpitalny-Vladimirnov Aviatcionnaya Krupnokalibernaya cannon was gas-operated and 1760mm or 2210mm long. Its rate of fire was 800rpm, with its weight of42kg or 56kg. The ShVAK cannon had certain similarities to the Hispano-Suiza cannon HS 404, with its 1245mm or 1700mm long barrel, latter was intended to be installed in the engine vee, firing through the propeller hub. In 1945, the improved Berezin design B-20 aircraft cannon in this caliber was introduced, which had 
the same rate of fire, but it weighed only 25kg and was much more reliable. The gas operated cannon could be mounted in wings and turrets. After WWII, it was mounted as PV-20 defensive cannon in turrets of heavy bombers.
In the ground role two slightly modified versions of the ShVAK cannon were used on light tanks like the T-30 and T-60, they were called TNSh–1 and TNSh–20.
The cartridges have brass cases and a percussion primer. They are filled with 18,1g of tubed propellant 0,7x2. Shells have copper driving bands. HE shells are either fuzed with the K-6, A-20 or MG-3 nose fuze. The K-6 uses a setback force safety, while the A-20 uses a coiled band safety device. However, the A-20 is also found with a different safety device. Projectiles are blackened (blued) against corrosion, HE shells have red fuze tips, API shells black tips with red rings below. HEI-T shells have an additional green band above the driving band. However, colour marks were not consistently the practise. Cartridges are linked in desintegrating steel belts in 120 and 180 rounds quantities.
Ammunition for the sub caliber devices are maufactured in Russia and the Czech Republic.
Ammunition used during WWII:
 
 
 
USSR Designation US Abbreviation Bullet Weight [g] Muzzle Velocity [m/s] Description
OZ HEI 96,0 770 Nose fuze, 2,8g HE + 3,3g incediary
OZT HEI-T 96,5 770 Nose fuze, 2,8g HE + 3,3g incediary, tracer
OF HE-Frag. 91,0 790 Nose fuze, 6,7g HE, fragmentation grooves on shell
OFZ HEI-Frag. 91,0 790 Nose fuze, 0,8g HE + 3,8g incediary, fragmentation grooves on shell
BZ API-HC 96,0 750 Mild steel projectile case with hardened steel core, surrounded by 2,5g incendiary, screwed on aluminum, or bakelite ballistic cap
BZ API-HC 99,0 750 As above but with swaged steel nose cap
BZ API 96,0 750 Solid steel shot with incendiary in swaged steel cap
BZT API-T 96,0 750 As above but with tracer in base cavity
PU TP 96,0 770 Inert filled HEI shell with dummy fuze
PUT TP-T 96,5 770 Empty solid head projectile with swaged tracer in base cavity
 
 
 
A Czech post WWII AP-T round is known, which uses a pointed solid steel shot with tracer. This is exactly the same type as used in the 20x138B cartridge and is shown in the second picture of the 20x138B section (the one with the red powder bag). Contrary to the round shown, the projectile for the 20x99R is originally unpainted, cases are brass with the headstamp IOU and a date from the early 50s.
The performance in the post WWII sub-caliber devices, used in RFAS tanks and artillery guns, is not known.
 
 
 
   

 
 
23x115 23mm NR/NS and GSh aircraft cannons
 
The 23mm Nudelman-Suranov aircraft cannon NS-23 was introduced in 1945 to replace the VYa cannon; actually it was a NS-37 cannon scaled down. The recoil operated weapon weighted 37kg and fired 550rpm, it was encountered in 3 different versions: In wing or fuselage mounts on fighters like the MiG-9 and the MiG-15, in synchronised mounts NS-23S on propellor driven aircraft like Il-10, La-7 or La-9 and as bomber defence turret cannon.
The Nudelman-Richter NR-23 became available in 1949 and was based on the VYa cannon. Compared to the NS-23, the NR-23 was gas operated and weighted 39kg but fired an improved 850rpm. It became the major barrel weapon of the Russian jet figters like the MiG-17 and replaced the B-20 as bomber defence cannon.
China copied 


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Home » Russia » Lavochkin 5/7
Lavochkin 5/7
 
Developed from the disappointing LaGG-3, the Lavochkin La-5 was one of the great fighters of World War II. It shared the earlier machine's wooden construction, but the new radial engine gave it vastly superior performance. The La-5 and its successors were amongst the best dogfighters of the war, especially at low level and were flown by most leading Soviet pilots including Ivan Kozhedub, the Allied 'ace of aces'.

As the Soviet armies reeled back from the German invasion of 1941, there were frantic demands for the Soviet air force to be re-equipped with modern fighters. In Oct 1941, Semyon Lavochkin began work on an improved version of the heavy LaGG-3 fighter. The ensuing La-5, equipped with a powerful radial engine and cut-down rear fuselage, entered production in July 1942 and more than 1000 were built by the end of the year.

The first large-scale use of the La-5 came in 1942 over Stalingrad. Here and at Kursk the following year, it proved to be a ferocious dogfighter, especially at low level. The lightweight La-5FN appeared that year and was flown by many top Soviet aces.

The La-7 of 1944 had more power and many minor improvements, making it one of the most effective fighters of the war.

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The La-5's excellent radial engine and wooden bonded construction were ideal for service in Russia. The La-5 was simply and ruggedly constructed. It structure was mostly built from wood rather than scarce light aircraft alloys.


 Lavochkin 5/7 (Technical Specification)
Role Single-seat fighter
Manufacturer Lavochkin
Maximum Speed 650 kmh (403 mph)
Maximum Range 765 km (475 miles)
Ceiling 11,000 meters (36,000 feet)
Weight
Empty
Maximum Takeoff
2,605 kg (5,737 lbs)
3,360 kg (7,932 lbs)
Dimensions
Wingspan
Length
Height
Wing Area
9.80 meters (32 ft)
8.67 meters (28 ft)
2.54 meters (8 ft)
17.59 square meters (189 sq ft)
Engines One Shvetsov M-82FN (ASh-82FN) radial piston engine which provides 1231-kW (1,650 hp)
Armament Two or three 20 mm (0.79 in) ShVAK or 23 mm (0.9 in) NS cannon
158 kg (350 lbs) of bombs
Four 82 mm (3 in) rockets underwing

 
 



« Last Edit: June 16, 2009, 08:01:10 PM by 1Boner »
"Life is just as deadly as it looks"  Richard Thompson

"So umm.... just to make sure I have this right.  What you are asking is for the bombers carrying bombs, to stop dropping bombs on the bombs, so the bombers can carry bombs to bomb things with?"  AKP

Offline AWwrgwy

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Re: La-5 armament.
« Reply #13 on: June 16, 2009, 08:27:45 PM »
My guess would be, after reading your last sources above, that any use of the NS-23 may have come post-WWII.  Why change the armmament of the LA5 in 1945?

Of course, what about the IL-2 pre '45.

Something fishy with the dates given for the NS-23?


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Offline moot

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Re: La-5 armament.
« Reply #14 on: June 16, 2009, 09:28:01 PM »
Boner have you compared the dimensions of the NS23 and the La5's blueprints?
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