Author Topic: Aces High 2 Vs WW2 Online Vs IL2.  (Read 8614 times)

Offline bravoa8

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Re: Aces High 2 Vs WW2 Online Vs IL2.
« Reply #30 on: June 12, 2009, 10:26:50 AM »
AH2 is way better than il2 il2 is all fighters while AH2 is everything well almost but keep up the great work HTC :rock

Offline BlauK

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Re: Aces High 2 Vs WW2 Online Vs IL2.
« Reply #31 on: June 12, 2009, 12:10:18 PM »
IL-2 is great if you want to look at your cockpit, but if you want to see out from your cockpit, it'll be a disappointment compared to AH. With full real settings many other things like taking off, managing radiator flaps and engine, finding enemies and finding back home, will also be a challenge compared to what we have in AH. It is all up to what you are looking for in a sim/game, what you enjoy doing.


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Offline Kweassa

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Re: Aces High 2 Vs WW2 Online Vs IL2.
« Reply #32 on: June 12, 2009, 01:18:11 PM »
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I strongly suspect a lot of what goes on in Il2 is there because the makers are trying to simulate "the conditions" rather than the "equipment" and because much of the fan base thinks harder=more realistic in WWII air combat simulation.

Actually, it's the opposite.

One of the most distinct problems of IL-2 as compared to AH, is that they pay attention to the "equipment" details, rather than the "conditions" concerning combat. A prime example is how they handle the flaps. In short, anyone who has ever complained about the auto-retracting flaps in AH, and asked for manual flap control at all speeds albeit at the penalty of possible damage - well, IL-2 has it right there. You are totally free to engage flaps whenever you want, and although at higher speeds the flaps will indeed damage and jam tight, as long as one avoids those extremes one is free to deploy them at speeds which it is not allowed were it in AH. The end result, is IL-2 combat tends to become a 'flap-fest', as some people call it.

In AH, restrictions are implemented and enforced so that one may only deploy flaps at the speeds listed in the manual. This, in a broader sense of things, actually helps loosely simulate the WW2 pilot mindset, in which many of the average pilots will not venture outside their directives in managing the plane by taking unnecessary risks that may endanger their own lives. Although there are exceptions, such as certain famous or elite group of pilots managing their planes at extreme levels, on a grand average such instances were usually uncommon. Therefore, in AH, if you deploy flaps it means your airspeed is really low. Although it happens frequently, it is as a matter of fact a 'special occasion' where the planes are forced outside their comfort zone and into an extreme stall fight - in which flaps will be used, as it was used in such occasions in actual history.

IL-2 is different. People use flaps mandatorily with every combat turn. Some people even rig-set slider input to flap controls so that they deploy as they turn - almost resembling the N1K2 auto-flap. When you need a speed brake to force overshoot, you don't need the level of skill needed in AH - you just get the plane down to a certain speed lot higher than in AH, and after that just punch out the flaps and they will come down. It's like every plane in IL-2 is like the F4U in AH, lowering flaps and gears in combat.

Other instances, such as abusing manual RPM controls, I've explained in the A/V forum Tempest/Typh thread made by Kev367th.


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You can't just laugh off the awful view system like that. It is not just overshoots, difficulty tracking the bandit makes E-fighting/roping/out-of-plane maneuvering very, very difficult, as does the the gunnery.

It's just a matter of adaptation.

The difficulty of keeping track of an enemy plane was a fact of life for WW2 pilots. That's why they needed an extra pair of eyes in case they lose track of an enemy - it's called a "Wingman".

It is true that the view system sucks in IL-2. I have no intention of denying that. However, most often this fact is greatly exaggerated amongst AH gamers to the point of being ridiculous. AH is a relatively recent game. Most other games we've all played much before the coming of AH had those same old-style view system restrictions in place, and we didn't have any trouble playing it back then. It's a matter of adaptation.

Yes, it sucks, especially for people used to the advanced system AH uses - but its not unplayable. The only real difficulty I've had in tracking enemies in IL-2 was inside no-icon rooms, which taught me that I needed to get myself a new pair of glasses or maybe a lasic surgery. But many MP sessions at least provide the friend/foe icon info, in which case as long as the enemy plane was in front of me, I had no trouble at all using a hat switch to track it's position just as in AH. A little bit more difficult and bothersome, but not much trouble at all.

Now, when an enemy plane is at your six, it's a different story. In this case my opinion is that AH is overly lenient in providing a panoramic 6 view which one touch of a button will give you a wide scope of your tail, although with some visual hamperment such as headrests. On the contrary, the fixed head position in IL-2 which totally denies your 5, 6, 7 o'c view, and only allows either 8 or 4 o'c views, is overly restrictive and primitive. In this case the middle path is what I think is best.


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Gives advantage to planes that can just saddle up at dead six 200 and wail away, and they already have enough advantage IMO.

An enemy plane saddling up at dead six at 200yards/meters is not an 'advantage'. It's a death. Nothing's different in AH.

 
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What can I say about the gunnery? Well, if HTC has modeled ballistics, ROF, and lethality correctly, then IL2 is dead-wrong in a lot of areas, especially with .50s, or vis versa. Judging from combat reports and gun-cam footage, I'd go with HTC being correct. Remember, sim pilots have many more hours on target that even the most experienced combat pilots. (Actually in Il2 flying the cannon birds things seem closer to AHII, with the .50s you give 190s 3 second bursts at convergence to little/no effect. . Multiple .30s seem about as effective as multiple .50s in Il2 ) If the guns are modeled correctly, then many sim pilots *should* be phenomenally lethal with 'em, right?

US combat reports document the most lethal kill-factor by 50cal fire as "fires". I distinctly remeber such a copy of either a USN or a USAAF investigation report coming up in the A/V forums a while back, which listed the frequency of battle damage received.

Besides, most every gun-cam footage I've seen of USAAF or USN birds attacking enemy planes, starts with a nice group of 50cal hit flash upon the enemy plane, and then ends with a great big trail of smoke. I've seen a few cases where concentrated fire rips off a wing, but those were relatively rare.

This, is spot on in IL-2.

Besides, you may think it's little/no effect when you hit a 190 with a 3 second blast, but according to my long experience in flying IL-2 mp sessions in IL-2, being on the receiving end is no picnic. It's pure havoc, with the pilot bleeding out and sluggish, the internal controls all busted up which almost entirely deprive you of any maneuvering at all, obvious perception of engine damage through the wheezing and coughing sound, and etc etc.. If it was in real life I'd have bailed the second I was shot up like that. It's because it is a game, that the pilot does not bail out so easily and tries to squirm out of the situation,  land the plane anyhow, or hope for making it to friendly territory.

It's no different that seeing a blazing fireball of a A6M that you shot up firing back at you. The pilot would have tried to bail were it in real life. Since AH is a game, flaming Zeroes fly all the way until it pops.

Offline BnZs

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Re: Aces High 2 Vs WW2 Online Vs IL2.
« Reply #33 on: June 12, 2009, 01:58:02 PM »
Hmmm...yes...the flaps thing in AHII in one thing...although I have a totally different take than you, it seems to me in AHII flaps usage is *more* carefree, not less, because of the auto-retract. You end up leaving them out for extra lift as airspeeds increase in downward-moving fights, in situations where you'd probably have pulled them in to avoid damage, and we also tend to use more than the 1 or 2 notch safe "maneuvering" settings the same reason IMO, no fear of damage.

I think the way HTC models WEP is ultimately more realistic than Il2. Il2's overheat-failure cycle is obviously pretty attenuated for some engines. It wasn't like your engine would automatically blow if you ran it at WEP longer than 5 minutes, limitations were as much about service life as anything. From what I've read, if you modeled an R-2800 to its real toughness, you could probably run the thing at 70'' for a full 20 minute dog fighting session without it blowing. In real life you'd probably want to right the engine off before the NEXT sortie, but that is not a concern in the sim. HTC's choice of forcing you to stay in specified WEP limits seems best to me.

You do have the point that *every* flight-sims viewing system seems to suck compared to AHII...I cut my simming teeth on CFS, not AHII or Il2, and CFS's views were worse than IL2. You had to resort to padlock. The first thing I noticed in starting AHII was much more ACM would be possible simply because you could now look around and keep orientation that much more effectively. In most other sims the management of a difficult view system takes equal place or even precedence in importance over the actual flying.

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Offline BlauK

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Re: Aces High 2 Vs WW2 Online Vs IL2.
« Reply #34 on: June 12, 2009, 02:01:06 PM »
What is all this notch flaps here and there... I use flaps for landing and that's it  :devil


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Offline bravoa8

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Re: Aces High 2 Vs WW2 Online Vs IL2.
« Reply #35 on: June 12, 2009, 02:13:22 PM »
If i had to quit Ah2 and go to another game like it it probably would be il2 but like i said ah2 is alot better

Offline hitech

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Re: Aces High 2 Vs WW2 Online Vs IL2.
« Reply #36 on: June 12, 2009, 02:34:40 PM »
I prefer AH2.

HiTech

Offline Estes

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Re: Aces High 2 Vs WW2 Online Vs IL2.
« Reply #37 on: June 12, 2009, 02:38:39 PM »

Offline DrDea

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Re: Aces High 2 Vs WW2 Online Vs IL2.
« Reply #38 on: June 12, 2009, 03:17:33 PM »
 Il2 pretty,AH2 Top notch, WW2OL Blows goats.
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Offline lazydog

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Re: Aces High 2 Vs WW2 Online Vs IL2.
« Reply #39 on: June 12, 2009, 03:38:25 PM »
ive tried them all i feel aces high is still the best

Offline moot

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Re: Aces High 2 Vs WW2 Online Vs IL2.
« Reply #40 on: June 12, 2009, 03:43:39 PM »
Hmmm...yes...the flaps thing in AHII in one thing...although I have a totally different take than you, it seems to me in AHII flaps usage is *more* carefree, not less, because of the auto-retract. You end up leaving them out for extra lift as airspeeds increase in downward-moving fights, in situations where you'd probably have pulled them in to avoid damage, and we also tend to use more than the 1 or 2 notch safe "maneuvering" settings the same reason IMO, no fear of damage.

Just a nit pick.  We don't leave them out. They pull back in, so there's no performance advantage.  Only a cut down on micromanagement distractions from the real substance of dogfighting: the tactical storyline.
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Offline moot

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Re: Aces High 2 Vs WW2 Online Vs IL2.
« Reply #41 on: June 12, 2009, 03:54:42 PM »
Hello... V-stabbed planes continuing to dogfight as though nothing happened???  The Il2 FM is a glitch made to conform to historical specs (or anecdotes), but still a glitch.  US models swaying under 50 cal fire?  Etc.
It is true that the view system sucks in IL-2. I have no intention of denying that. However, most often this fact is greatly exaggerated amongst AH gamers to the point of being ridiculous. AH is a relatively recent game. Most other games we've all played much before the coming of AH had those same old-style view system restrictions in place, and we didn't have any trouble playing it back then. It's a matter of adaptation.
No way Kweassa!  Oleg consciously chose shallow eye candy over authentic elements of the air combat experience.  He sacrificed something as essential as the immersion allowed by 6DOF to bullet proof his vision of what it's like to sit in a cockpit.. He'd rather remove from players that immersion than risk them seeing some negligible warts on his cockpit art.  That's what's ridiculous.  AH is recent, and Il2 is even more recent.  They busted their bellybutton including a plethora of aircraft types, implementing a thorough engine management, flight and damage model, but didn't have the sense to make the player's interface with these as transparent as possible.  Huge mistake. Nothing you can just dismiss as exageration from AH players' critique.
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Yes, it sucks, especially for people used to the advanced system AH uses - but its not unplayable. The only real difficulty I've had in tracking enemies in IL-2 was inside no-icon rooms, which taught me that I needed to get myself a new pair of glasses or maybe a lasic surgery. But many MP sessions at least provide the friend/foe icon info, in which case as long as the enemy plane was in front of me, I had no trouble at all using a hat switch to track it's position just as in AH. A little bit more difficult and bothersome, but not much trouble at all.

No.... You're putting a band aid on the gaping wound.  It's a fundamental design mistake in Il2.  No way to fudge this one into anything else.
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Now, when an enemy plane is at your six, it's a different story. In this case my opinion is that AH is overly lenient in providing a panoramic 6 view which one touch of a button will give you a wide scope of your tail, although with some visual hamperment such as headrests. On the contrary, the fixed head position in IL-2 which totally denies your 5, 6, 7 o'c view, and only allows either 8 or 4 o'c views, is overly restrictive and primitive. In this case the middle path is what I think is best.

That's right, and the middle path would be AH doing a bit of biomechanical homework (same as they did for stick forces modeling choices) and restricting head position/movements correspondingly with G loads on the pilot.  e.g. No Linda Blair 6 view while rolling hard and pulling 6 Gs on the opposite side, no jacked up over the nose view while pulling yourself to the edge of +G-lock, and a stricter -G redout threshold.  And so on. 
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US combat reports document the most lethal kill-factor by 50cal fire as "fires". I distinctly remeber such a copy of either a USN or a USAAF investigation report coming up in the A/V forums a while back, which listed the frequency of battle damage received.

Besides, most every gun-cam footage I've seen of USAAF or USN birds attacking enemy planes, starts with a nice group of 50cal hit flash upon the enemy plane, and then ends with a great big trail of smoke. I've seen a few cases where concentrated fire rips off a wing, but those were relatively rare.

Historical anecdotes are no holy grail, physics are.  AH anecdotes and historical ones couldn't match without improper physics because they're set in two separate sets of circumstances.  Apples and oranges.
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It's no different that seeing a blazing fireball of a A6M that you shot up firing back at you. The pilot would have tried to bail were it in real life. Since AH is a game, flaming Zeroes fly all the way until it pops.
Definitely undermodeled, the debilitating heat, smoke, and pain of a BBQ'd cockpit.

« Last Edit: June 12, 2009, 03:57:35 PM by moot »
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Offline 5PointOh

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Re: Aces High 2 Vs WW2 Online Vs IL2.
« Reply #42 on: June 12, 2009, 04:02:13 PM »
I prefer AH2.

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HTC keeps me happy, never felt the need to go somewhere else..So I prefer AH2 as well.
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Offline Eagler

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Re: Aces High 2 Vs WW2 Online Vs IL2.
« Reply #43 on: June 12, 2009, 04:03:10 PM »
IL2 is good practice for ah2
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Offline Mar

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Re: Aces High 2 Vs WW2 Online Vs IL2.
« Reply #44 on: June 12, 2009, 04:13:37 PM »
Well I'll tell you what I think about head movements under g load, burning planes, and engine management concerning AH. It all belongs in CT. In the rest of the place, however, I like to be in complete control and in full capability of my flying machine as I match my flying ability against the other guy. Matching my ability to manage my organs and engine heat in addition to managing the fight does not appeal to me for some reason.
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