Fighting for the wrong side.

[33Vortex]

I can not believe how ignorant some people are, to even have to remind others and/or themselves that "they were humans too". Wake up, please, and smell the ****.

There were arses on both sides and various crimes commited. The difference being that the losers were forced to admit defeat and confess their crimes, while the winners continued comitting theirs with reinforced confidence after the war... business as usual.

My grandfather, and his brother, both deported and imprisoned to a forced labor camp solely because they were university students. After less than a year of the original ~8000 students remained ~5500, at that time they were sent to the front line as cannon fodder. Mine clearing duties as penal workers batallions awaited. At the front, they and their company made a choice, to fight against communism and for the freedom of their own country, Estonia. So one night they did not just clear paths through the minefield they crossed the front line and into the german positions to surrender to the germans, volunteering for duty.

So don't give me that crap about the good vs evil fight, or right vs wrong, because all I see is grey, and all of it stinks and it still does today.


This is my personal opinion and does not in any way represent the opinion of my squad or other members of my squad.

[33Vortex]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cA4oE_dSzUE

[33Vortex]

I don't know... but if you some day have to go to war, you will realize that it is people you are shooting at and killing. As in, other human beings. As opposed to some entertaining game that you log on to for some fun, whenever you feel like it, to kill pixelated "nazis".

[Die Hard]

No offense, but the impact of Britain on world economy, politics or military power is negligible - definitely not super-power and I would not even place it in the second rank. France and Germany are much more influential in the EU. Do you want to go into football? Today it is no more than a large European state with good cultural exposure and maker of good documentaries.

All this is besides the point. I love Britain and British history more than any other nation, but still, the classic portrayal of Britain as the historical "good guys" is highly biased. In context of this thread, it seems that British soldiers were often fighting for the "wrong side" - however nobody will ask "why did they do that?" about the British soldiers.

A very good post. "Right" is relative, and never unbiased.

[Angus]

Is it.....or is it not....

[Die Hard]

Is it.....or is it not....

And that is entirely based on your own point of view. What you may consider right I may consider wrong. Example: Just ask the question "is the death penalty right or wrong" on this bbs and if Skuzzy is on vacation the thread will become a monster.

Morality is relative.

[RufusLeaking]

In fact part of the reason a more efficient and cleaner method of killing was devised was simply because many of the executioners couldn't cope with what they were doing.

Please do not imply that in any way that these butchers were being merciful.

Quite simply, if I was German back then. I would have joined in enthusiastically fought for my country and never apologised for it. It's the way of things.

To fight with one’s countrymen is not unpardonable. It is the atrocities committed in Europe and in China by the Axis in WW2 that warrant sincere and repeated apologies.  Germany is still contrite after 65 years.  What was done cannot be undone.  But, at least, it can be remembered as pure horror that must not be repeated.

An inspiration for the OP was the thought of “what would I have done?”  It haunts me that I, too, would have probably gone with the flow.

Americans will normally tend to associate the British as the "good guys" - except when their independence war comes to mind.

To reference Americans for a sense of history is like referencing the British for a sense of cooking or Germans for a sense of humor.  I think it was a British guy who said something like: “German comedy is no laughing matter.”  Pardon the stereotyping, but I thought it funny.

In context of this thread, it seems that British soldiers were often fighting for the "wrong side" - however nobody will ask "why did they do that?" about the British soldiers.

The context of this thread was originally to look at airmen in WW2.  Many of our relatives have living memories of this time.  WW2 is much more personal to many of us than the American Revolution or the Opium Wars.  In history, there are countless examples of wrong sidedness.  Sometimes, the wrong side won, and rewrote history.  I’ll leave these cases to another thread.

[Angus]

And that is entirely based on your own point of view. What you may consider right I may consider wrong. Example: Just ask the question "is the death penalty right or wrong" on this bbs and if Skuzzy is on vacation the thread will become a monster.

Morality is relative.

Does that apply to good or bad, or did you study enough philosophy to blur the difference?

Time is also relative...

[Die Hard]

What?

Do you think morality isn't relative and subjective?

[33Vortex]

When thinking about the war I also remember that the true humanity of each side is never revealed until the dust settles.

For the men in the front line trenches, I assure you, they knew their enemy and it was not all hatred but also respect and a mutual understanding. Even compassion sometimes as men would stop killing eachother (sometimes organized, sometimes spontaneously as both sides found themselves exhausted by the killing) and let wounded be evacuated. This is not to say there weren't any hate or very bitter fighting. One must understand that the battlefield mentality change as much as the weather and different units had different traditions, history and reputation not to mention leaders who set the spirit and standards of the whole unit.

I've not seen anything even close to what my grandfather did on the eastern front, but I've dug deep in historical literature and remember how my grandfather was, and had some experiences myself in the service. All front soldiers have one thing in common, they wish for the killing to stop. It is not natural for man to kill another man, it has to be taught. Some learn to kill, some learn to hate and through hate to kill without remorse, some never learn to kill without grief. This is regardless of side and I dare say that if you say different you're a liar. Look at the suicide statistics of US vets coming home from Iraq/Afghanistan. The men who keep fighting regardless do it for one thing and one thing only, a sense of duty and honor.

What I mean is, to clarify, that the true humanity of each side is... the same. There is no difference whatsoever. If you believe differently you have obviously bought the propaganda package, and not experienced these matters first hand.

Ignorance is bliss.

[Rich46yo]

What trenches have you been in? Sweden doesnt exactly have a modern history of filling them.

And the Western Allies did fight and defeat something totally evil in WW-ll. I could recomend plenty of books and web sights if you dont learn history over there.

For the men in the front line trenches, I assure you, they knew their enemy and it was not all hatred but also respect and a mutual understanding. Even compassion sometimes as men would stop killing eachother (sometimes organized, sometimes spontaneously as both sides found themselves exhausted by the killing) and let wounded be evacuated. This is not to say there weren't any hate or very bitter fighting. One must understand that the battlefield mentality change as much as the weather and different units had different traditions, history and reputation not to mention leaders who set the spirit and standards of the whole unit.

I've not seen anything even close to what my grandfather did on the eastern front, but I've dug deep in historical literature and remember how my grandfather was, and had some experiences myself in the service. All front soldiers have one thing in common, they wish for the killing to stop. It is not natural for man to kill another man, it has to be taught. Some learn to kill, some learn to hate and through hate to kill without remorse, some never learn to kill without grief. This is regardless of side and I dare say that if you say different you're a liar. Look at the suicide statistics of US vets coming home from Iraq/Afghanistan. The men who keep fighting regardless do it for one thing and one thing only, a sense of duty and honor.

What I mean is, to clarify, that the true humanity of each side is... the same. There is no difference whatsoever. If you believe differently you have obviously bought the propaganda package, and not experienced these matters first hand.

Ignorance is bliss.

[33Vortex]

I'd like to add that this thread was brought up on the JG11 board by one of our members to bring it to Vilkas' attention, so that he may reply to it should he want to. He has opted not to, as it brings back too many and too painful memories for him. I think that alone says a lot and is something to consider for some of you.

For those of you who don't know who Vilkas is, he was born Lithuanian, it was not his choice but that's how he came to this world. At the age of 13 he was forcibly drafted by the germans to be a flak gunner. He looked older than he was. 13 years old guys! Just think about that for a while.

At this young age, he saw friends mutilated, blown up, killed outright. As a flak gunner on a 20mm (those we toy around with ingame) he scored 2 aerial kills, both TBMs. As he put it, it was a cat and mouse game between aa gunners and allied attack aircraft, a very deadly game. It is easy to forget just how deadly this game was irl, this game that we amuse ourselves with online late at night.

A boy recruited at age 13, his youth stolen, scarred by memories for life and like many vets left with the feeling of never being understood by anybody, not even his closest family.

I think that most of you will never comprehend in your lifetime, just how hard it can be to be a survivor. At the same time, be glad you won't find out!



Edit: spelling and correction of words

[33Vortex]

What trenches have you been in? Sweden doesnt exactly have a modern history of filling them.

And the Western Allies did fight and defeat something totally evil in WW-ll. I could recomend plenty of books and web sights if you dont learn history over there.

I'll tell you straight up that your post is completely ignorant and not worthy of a reply.

[RufusLeaking]

I'd like to add that this thread was brought up on the JG11 board by one of our members to bring it to Vilkas' attention, so that he may reply to it should he want to. He has opted not to, as it brings back too many and too painful memories for him. I think that alone says a lot and is something to consider for some of you.

No disrespect to Vilkas or others like him was intended when I started this thread.  I would not wish to open old wounds.

It illustrates my vague point in that he was put in mortal danger in service of a brutal regime.  There are arguments that the planes he defended against were part of a brutal doctrine of destroying civilian targets.  I agree that there are gray areas.  Had he been defending London during the Blitz, it would have been horrible, but he would be celebrated in history.  I think this is similar to what I was trying to bring out in the OP. 

Please convey my respect and regards to Vilkas.

[33Vortex]

Any regime can be brutal when facing defeat. The USA has been assasinating political leaders, staged coups and killed millions of people worldwide since 1945, many of them civilians.

Look, there is no point in blame, or saying who's right and who's wrong. The point I wanted to make is that in the end, war is about killing other human beings. Whether the enemy is human, or humane, or not, is not a matter of debate, it is fact. Whether you like it or not.