Author Topic: B17 Story for the buffers  (Read 663 times)

Offline Silat

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B17 Story for the buffers
« on: August 28, 2001, 10:40:00 PM »
Although this isn't the sort of thing we routinely publish on AVweb, the following 1944 pilot report by a B-17 combat pilot offers us all some food for thought about how cool heads in the cockpit can save the day when everything goes wrong and the situation seems hopeless.


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Account of Maneuvers As Undergone by B-17G Aircraft No. 42-39957
On Combat Mission of 11 January 1944 to Halberstadt, Germany
by John W. Raedeke, 1st Lt., Air Corps, Pilot
John B. Urban, 2nd Lt.. Air Corps, Co-Pilot
Took off at 0745 o'clock with a load of 2300 gallons of gasoline, 6000 pounds of bombs, full load of ammunition, and the usual weight of men and equipment. Everything on plane was in perfect working order.

Joined the group formation at 1010 o'clock and flew into target without incident but was forced to use 2400 R.P.M. and 40" at times.

Dropped our bombs at 1152 o'clock, everything still in good shape. At 1200 o'clock we were hit by fighters which stayed with us for one hour and fifty minutes. They attacked us from 5-7 o'clock position at first and gradually as more enemy fighters joined they attacked us from 3-9 o'clock positions.

We were flying "Tail End Charlie", #7 position. The fighters .created much excitement among the squadron, resulting in more power being applied to the engines. We were forced to use 2500 R.P.M. and 40"-46" almost continuously

About 1245 o'clock more enemy fighters joined the attack and finally we were being attacked from all positions on the clock, high and low.

The plane was vibrating and pitching unbelievably as a result of all guns firing, fighting prop-wash, and evading collision with our own as well as enemy planes.

Enemy fighters would come through our formation from 1200 o'clock position, level in groups of 20-40 at one time all shooting.

The sky in front. of us was a solid mass of exploding 20 M.M. shells, flak, rockets, burning aircraft, and more enemy fighters. B-17's were going down in flames every 15 minutes and enemy fighters seemed to explode or go down in smoke like flies dropping out of the sky.

The "Luftwaffe" attacked us in ME 109's, ME 210's, FW 190's, JU 88's, and some we couldn't identify. The enemy fighters made suicidal attacks at us continuously, coming into about fifty feet before turning away.

It seemed that the greater part of the attack was aimed at our ship, perhaps for the following reason. Our ship was the only one in the group that was not firing tracer bullets and they apparently thought we had no guns or were out of ammunition.

The heaviest assault and the one that damaged us happened as follows. At approximately 1330 o'clock we were attacked by another group of enemy fighters numbering about forty which came at us again from 1200 o'clock position, level in formation pattern. Again, we saw that solid wall of exploding shells and fighters. This time we were flying #3 position in the second element of the lead squadron.

As they came in the top turret gunner of our ship nailed a FW 190 which burst into flames, nosed up and to its left, thus colliding with the B-17 flying #2 position of the second element on our right. Immediately upon colliding this B-17 burst into flames, started into a loop but fell off on its left wing and across our tail. We were really hit and we had "Had It".

At the time we were thus stricken we were using a full power setting of 2500 R.P.M. and 40"-46" Hg. Our I.A.S. was approximately 165 M.P.H. and our altitude was 19,000 feet.

Immediately upon being hit by the falling B-17 we were nosed up and went into a loop. Confusion, no less, and embarrassment. Pilot called crew at once and ordered them to prepare to bail out. Response was instantaneous and miraculously proficient. Not one crew member grew frantic or lost his head, so to speak. All stood ready at their stations to abandon the ship.

The action of the Pilot regarding the handling of the ship was as follows. As quickly as we were hit we engaged the A.F.C.E. (automatic flight control equipment --ed) which was set up for level flying. Full power was applied with throttle and both Pilot and Co-Pilot began the struggle with the manual controls. It was noted at once that the rudder control was out because the rudder pedals could not be moved.

In only a fraction of a second the ship had completed a beautiful loop and was now merrily spinning toward the ground, with five enemy fighters following on the tail. Although the spin seemed flat and rather slow it was vicious and we were losing altitude fast. :As soon as we had completed the loop and had fallen into a spin the Pilot, having full confidence in a prayer, recalled the crew members and ordered them to stand by for a little while longer. "Guts," discipline, and confidence in their Pilot was certainly displayed by the crew by the fact that they stayed with the ship.

To return to the spin and its final recovery. When the ship fell into a spin the Pilot after determining its direction applied full inside throttle, retarded the other two, used only aileron A.F.C.E. control, and applied it in full opposite position, rolled elevator trim-tab fully forward, and in addition both pilots applied full forward position on control column, plus full opposite aileron.

After making at least two or three complete 360-degree turns, the ship finally swept into a clean dive at an angle of approximately 45 degrees from level. The I.A.S. at this time was approximately 280 M.P.H. The altitude was approximately 12,000 feet. Power setting was reduced to about 2/3.

At this point it was noted that one enemy fighter was still following on our tail, therefore seeing a solid undercast below we nosed the ship down and applied additional power. We were heading for cloud cover at an angle of approximately 75 degrees to 80 degrees from the level at a speed of about 400 M.P.H. indicated.

All this while the aileron was clutched into A.F.C.E. and was holding wings level. The elevators were controlled entirely by the trim tab. At 6000 feet we began easing back the elevator trim tab and slowly started to level out. Finally leveled off in the clouds at 4000 feet, trimmed the ship, and engaged elevator clutch of A.F.C.E. Disengaged this every few seconds to retrim ship, kept it perfectly level and flying smoothly. The I.A.S. after leveling off in the clouds was still around 340 M.P.H. but was dropping off quite rapidly until it reached 200 M.P.H. Maintained an I.A.S. of 190-200 M.P.H. from then on with a power setting of 2100 R.P.M. and 31" Hg.

Checked all engine instruments immediately after leveling off and found everything functioning normally, except the Pilot's directional gyro which apparently had tumbled.

Flew in the cloud cover for about ten (10) minutes then came out above to check for more enemy fighters. Saw one fighter after several minutes at five (5) o'clock position high so we ducked back into the clouds for about ten minutes longer. Came out again and found everything clear. Rode the top of the clouds all the way back across the North Sea. The point where we first entered the cloud cover was about thirty (30) minutes flying time (at our speed) from the enemy sea coast.

An interesting point which occurred was that we came out of our spin and dive on a heading of 270 degrees which fortunately was our heading home. immediately after we had leveled off in the clouds each crew member reported into the Co-Pilot that he was back at his station and manning his guns. No particular excitement or scare was apparent for the crew members started a merry chatter over the interphone.

During the violent maneuvers of the loop the left waist gunner, S/Sgt. Warren Carson, was thrown about in the waist of the ship resulting in a fractured leg. However, he did remain at his guns until the chances of more enemy attacks was nil.

After we were well out over the North Sea the injured waist gunner was moved to the radio room where he was treated and made comfortable by the Bombardier who went back to assist. At this time also the Co-Pilot went to the rear of the ship to examine the Control cables and make a general survey of the damage to the tail section. He reported that about 1/3 of the left horizontal stabilizer and elevator were off and that almost the entire vertical stabilizer and rudder had been sheared off but that all control cables were O.K. However, the ship was functioning quite normally except for the fact that we had to make turns with aileron only. It also seemed to fly quite smoothly in spite of the missing vertical stabilizer and rudder. It was therefore decided by the pilot that a normal landing could be attempted.

Reaching the English coast we headed for our home field but the weather had closed in and the ceiling was getting lower as we neared our field. Finally, we were forced to fly at tree-top heights in order to stay out of the clouds, thus getting lost All radio equipment was out and we were not sure where the field was. Finally it began to rain, besides our other trouble, so we decided to land at the first field we found

Pilot ordered all crew members to radio room to prepare for crash landing. However, the Navigator volunteered to remain in the nose of the ship to direct the Pilot and Co-Pilot in their approach to the field and a final landing.

The landing was accomplished in the normal manner, taking advantage of a slightly longer approach. Picked the longest runway which suited the wind direction but still had to contend with a cross wind. With the aid of the Navigator's directions we made a low approach to the runway, correcting for draft by holding the windward wing low and holding it straight by jockeying the throttles. "No, you're wrong", we greased it on. Made a perfect landing.

After setting it on the ground it was noted that the right tire was flat However, this did not trouble us because the ship was stalled out at low speed and slowed down immediately by use of brakes. It was noted that the ship was almost dry of fuel. Positively no stress was placed on the ship in landing. It was a landing as any normal landing would be.

That's the story. We now know from experience that a B-17 will loop, spin, pull out of a dive when indicating 400 M.P.H., fly without a rudder and very little horizontal stabilizer, and will land normally without a rudder and a flat tire added.

The "guts", courage, and confidence displayed by the crew of this mission is highly commendable. The navigator displayed extreme courage when he volunteered to remain in the nose to direct the Pilot in landing in almost zero zero weather. The Co-Pilot deserves special commendation for his capable assistance in maneuvering this ship, guarding the engine, his careful survey of the damage, his assistance in determining the possibility of a safe landing and finally his reassuring words to the crew over the interphone during the homeward journey.

The gunners shot down nine (9) enemy aircraft and claimed to have damaged at least ten (10) more.


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This report was contributed by AVweb reader Eric Jacobs <ejacobs@inotech.com> who obtained it from a co-worker who is the nephew of the B-17 pilot John W. Raedeke.


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+Silat
"The first time someone shows you who they are, believe them." — Maya Angelou
"Conservatism offers no redress for the present, and makes no preparation for the future." B. Disraeli
"All that serves labor serves the nation. All that harms labor is treason."

Offline Toad

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B17 Story for the buffers
« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2001, 11:57:00 PM »
Wow, great read. Thanks!
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Ghosth

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B17 Story for the buffers
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2001, 07:35:00 AM »
Excellent read!

Offline hblair

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B17 Story for the buffers
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2001, 08:43:00 AM »
Great story.

That last line grabs my attention though:
 
Quote
The gunners shot down nine (9) enemy aircraft and claimed to have damaged at least ten (10) more.
...and I thought craven was good in a B17.  ;)

Is it possible for these guys to have downed 9 fighters in a sortie??

Offline Pepe

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B17 Story for the buffers
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2001, 09:11:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Silat:



...At the time we were thus stricken we were using a full power setting of 2500 R.P.M. and 40"-46" Hg. Our I.A.S. was approximately 165 M.P.H. and our altitude was 19,000 feet....

... In only a fraction of a second the ship had completed a beautiful loop and was now merrily spinning toward the ground, ...

...As soon as we had completed the loop and had fallen into a spin the Pilot...

...After making at least two or three complete 360-degree turns, the ship finally swept into a clean dive at an angle of approximately 45 degrees from level. The I.A.S. at this time was approximately 280 M.P.H. The altitude was approximately 12,000 feet. Power setting was reduced to about 2/3.

...We were heading for cloud cover at an angle of approximately 75 degrees to 80 degrees from the level at a speed of about 400 M.P.H. indicated...

...Finally leveled off in the clouds at 4000 feet...

...The I.A.S. after leveling off in the clouds was still around 340 M.P.H....

...He reported that about 1/3 of the left horizontal stabilizer and elevator were off and that almost the entire vertical stabilizer and rudder had been sheared off...

...It was therefore decided by the pilot that a normal landing could be attempted....
 
...but the weather had closed in and the ceiling was getting lower as we neared our field. Finally, we were forced to fly at tree-top heights in order to stay out of the clouds, thus getting lost All radio equipment was out and we were not sure where the field was. Finally it began to rain, besides our other trouble, so we decided to land at the first field we found...


...but still had to contend with a cross wind. With the aid of the Navigator's directions we made a low approach to the runway, correcting for draft by holding the windward wing low and holding it straight by jockeying the throttles...

...the right tire was flat However, this did not trouble us because the ship was stalled out at low speed and slowed down immediately by use of brakes....

...Positively no stress was placed on the ship in landing. It was a landing as any normal landing would be...

...The gunners shot down nine (9) enemy aircraft and claimed to have damaged at least ten (10) more...

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Nice reading.

But....Is this possible at all in the real world?

Cheers,

Pepe

Offline Gunthr

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B17 Story for the buffers
« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2001, 09:20:00 AM »
I believe every word, having read many crew accounts put together in Martin Caiden's books. There are a lot of stories like this considering the huge B-17 raids that were made with as many as 10,000 B-17 crewmen in the air at one time, being met by hoards of German fighters.

Reading this stuff sure adds to the kick of flying in AH.
"When I speak I put on a mask. When I act, I am forced to take it off."  - Helvetius 18th Century

Offline iculus

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B17 Story for the buffers
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2001, 09:21:00 AM »
Great read!  Thanks!

<S>IC

Offline Nefarious

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B17 Story for the buffers
« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2001, 11:01:00 AM »
S! Very Good Info!!

Like I said in my post about "8th AF gunner info" in the Aircraft and Vehicles section.

People keep whining about range and accuracy of the guns themselves. Personally I feel that the guns on the buffs are pretty well modeled (except for the fact that you can shoot through your own airplane). Maybe the people that whine should try some new tactics. I had a sortie in a B17 while we were in the Mindano Terrain. I lifted off solo in a B17 and headed for a Bish Base. I climbed to around 12-15K and over target I was attacked by a 190,N1K2,and a tiffie. I shot down all three. I accounted all three kills to enemy pilot error. The 190 and the Tiffie came dead six. the N1K2 tried some kind of techinique of attacking low while climbing and then rolling back onto me when his E had been depleted. Needless to say all the attacks were basically suicide. The N1K2 was the only a/c that inflicted damage knocking out my Aux fuel.

Sorry to change the subject, But a B17 Crew returning with 9 kills is a very realistic number. And Im suprised that people are actually second guessing it.
There must also be a flyable computer available for Nefarious to do FSO. So he doesn't keep talking about it for eight and a half hours on Friday night!

Offline Alpo

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B17 Story for the buffers
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2001, 03:51:00 PM »
Thanks Silat... just posted this on the SkyKnights newsgroup as we do love our buffs  :D   The story really tells the survivability of those planes.  

Another good website for B17 survivability is Damaged B17s

Unbelievable how some of them came home.
SkyKnights Fighter Group -CO-
R.I.P.  SKDenny 02/03/1940 - 02/19/2012

...

Offline Buzzbait

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B17 Story for the buffers
« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2001, 04:49:00 PM »
S!

The guys in the B17`s had it far tougher than the USAAF Fighter Jocks.

The scope of the air battles over Germany are really impossible for us to conceive of.  When you consider there were commonly battles involving Multiple B17 Bomber Groups (100+ planes) versus 2-300 enemy Fighters, the action was more intense than anything an Online Sim can currently represent.

While I give every credit to the courage of the Buff drivers and their crews, the figure of 9 fighters shot down is undoubtably high.

Surveys after the war which compared actual German Fighter losses with Allied Bomber gunner claims, showed that the overclaim ratio was pretty close to 10-1.

Every bomber gunner in a formation would fire at any enemy aircraft coming into the formation.  And if the enemy fighter went down, all the gunners would claim it.

The USAAF knew this from intelligence gathered from decoded German communications, but they preferred to keep the Bomber Crew`s morale high.  Especially since the Bombers were suffering huge losses, and the chances for a crew to survive a `43-`44 tour were about 25%.

Offline Gunthr

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B17 Story for the buffers
« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2001, 06:57:00 PM »
Hi Buzzbait,You are right about the nine kills sounding high - not impossible- but probabally muliple claims for one fighter down. But I don't doubt that nine enemy fighters went down in the vicinity of this bomber. You can imagine what that might have been like... especially for the tailgunner and ball-turret gunner:

Ball Turret Gunner

"From my mother's sleep I fell into the State,
And I hunched in its belly till my wet fur froze.
Six miles from earth, loosed from the dream of life,
I woke to black flak and the nightmare fighters.
When I died they washed me out of the turret with a hose."

by Randall Jarrell
"When I speak I put on a mask. When I act, I am forced to take it off."  - Helvetius 18th Century

Offline majic

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« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2001, 06:52:00 PM »
all I can say is wow...much respect for those men.