Author Topic: Evil, evil HO, episode II  (Read 2504 times)

Offline lazydog

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Re: Evil, evil HO, episode II
« Reply #45 on: June 27, 2009, 11:46:12 PM »
ok try this 1 more time

Offline JunkyII

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Re: Evil, evil HO, episode II
« Reply #46 on: June 28, 2009, 04:25:34 AM »
OK Grasshopper.I can go along with that for the most case,except when plane a dives down to avoid and dweeb b dives down and gets the lucky shot in. HO is mostly intention. The guy has no intention in trying to get into an extended fight. Dweeb b wants to kill em as fast as he can.Plane a wants to engage and do some acm.
 Most of the people that tried to give me the hot merge couldnt fly their way out of a wet paper bag anyway.Thats why they do that.
I think half the deaths i have are from avoiding the headon and the other guy getting very lucky :salute
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Offline moot

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Offline Dawger

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Re: Evil, evil HO, episode II
« Reply #48 on: June 28, 2009, 08:31:23 AM »
A "HO" is when someone attempts to shoot you on the initial merge, assuming the initial "merge" isn't in the middle of a furball. This means that if either opponent opens up on a merge, even if they're no longer nose to nose (i.e., one plane attempts to roll out or otherwise avoid the HO), it's still a HO. After the initial merge, there is no HO.

A "merge," for our discussion, is when two aircraft point their noses at each other, from a considerable distance, and close toward each other in an obvious attempt to engage each other. If one is in the middle of a furball, there is no merge. Though you might come nose to nose with an opponent durring a furball, don't expect him/her to hold the trigger, and don't complain if he/she doesn't.

So, if I execute a great lead turn and you fly a sloppy merge and I arrive at a guns solution, no matter my angle off the tail during that first turn I'm guilty of a HO?

That explains a lot.........

The goal is to kill quickly and never allow the enemy a guns solution.

I see folks extend past the merge without lead turning. I've always wondered why they do that. I think its from this cold merge silliness so many insist on.

I welcome a hot merge because I KNOW I can defeat the front quarter gun shot. That's not saying some folks with good gunnery and a good guess won't hit me but I can easily dodge 98% of front quarter guns attempts and grab angles while the bandit is shooting (You must relax G while shooting and a max performing opponent will steal angles from you if you insist on shooting at every nose to nose pass)

Why would anyone want an extended fight? If you aren't gaining, you are losing and should exit the fight as soon as you recognize that. I can tell within 2 turns how I'm doing in the fight and if I'm getting my butt kicked I'm looking to exit the fight by getting the bandit blind to me and 180 degrees out.

And then they can type silly taunts about me running on 200............

Of course, in a P38, you usually can't get too far out of the fight before you get caught again.

Offline moot

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Re: Evil, evil HO, episode II
« Reply #49 on: June 28, 2009, 08:46:53 AM »
Why would anyone want an extended fight?
Because it's fun.  Because score doesn't matter.  Or because for some players, pwning in 1 move is old news.  It also makes the opponents bitter more often then not.  So what do they do?  Return in a high picker and/or with overwhelming numbers.  End result is the amount of stick and trigger time falls, overall. 
Also because killing quick everytime makes you less flexible.. Just about 90% of the arena makes the same mistakes, so that you're killing them the same way over and over again.  Boring and bad practice.
Also because it's hard.  You raise the handicap and get the equivalent of training with weights on your wrists and ankles.  It's more fun and useful to play against hard odds than breeze thru wet TP.  This ties right back in with #1.  Win-win for everyone involved:  higest possible stick/trigger times (i.e. highest learning for the noob), highest total air combat quality, highest fun factor, lowest disgust for the loser, and lowest amount of flying around doing nothing, chasing dots.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2009, 08:49:14 AM by moot »
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Offline Speed55

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Re: Evil, evil HO, episode II
« Reply #50 on: June 28, 2009, 08:49:49 AM »
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Offline lazydog

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Re: Evil, evil HO, episode II
« Reply #51 on: June 28, 2009, 09:13:57 AM »
lol thanks moot.how you did you do that .and did you watch it was there any ho's in that video?

Offline moot

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Re: Evil, evil HO, episode II
« Reply #52 on: June 28, 2009, 09:17:26 AM »
I'll look at it in a bit, sure.
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Offline DrDea

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Re: Evil, evil HO, episode II
« Reply #53 on: June 28, 2009, 12:16:42 PM »
Because it's fun.  Because score doesn't matter. 
Couldnt have said it better. :salute
I was flying Beta,I think it was the first night,and Batfink and I had a few fights that just gave me AH flashbacks.First one he hit my engine and told me to fly it home,which I did.So I took back off in a Franz to better turn with his Ki and we had a hell of an extended fight going on there till I Locked up harder than prom night wood.
 THATS the kinda fight I wanna see.Dont care if I win or lose but I want to see it go for a good 3 or 4 mins with the hair on fire. Some people will never get that.
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Offline RufusLeaking

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Re: Evil, evil HO, episode II
« Reply #54 on: June 28, 2009, 12:35:08 PM »
It's more fun and useful to play against hard odds than breeze thru wet TP.  This ties right back in with #1.  Win-win for everyone involved:  higest possible stick/trigger times (i.e. highest learning for the noob), highest total air combat quality, highest fun factor, lowest disgust for the loser, and lowest amount of flying around doing nothing, chasing dots.

Well said, though the thought of wet TP is yucky. 

In the best dogfights, the conclusion is not predetermined.  Some of my most satisfying fights ended with me with a fatal case of ground rush.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2009, 01:07:27 PM by RufusLeaking »
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Offline ink

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Re: Evil, evil HO, episode II
« Reply #55 on: June 28, 2009, 12:45:14 PM »
Because it's fun.  Because score doesn't matter.  Or because for some players, pwning in 1 move is old news.  It also makes the opponents bitter more often then not.  So what do they do?  Return in a high picker and/or with overwhelming numbers.  End result is the amount of stick and trigger time falls, overall. 
Also because killing quick everytime makes you less flexible.. Just about 90% of the arena makes the same mistakes, so that you're killing them the same way over and over again.  Boring and bad practice.
Also because it's hard.  You raise the handicap and get the equivalent of training with weights on your wrists and ankles.  It's more fun and useful to play against hard odds than breeze thru wet TP.  This ties right back in with #1.  Win-win for everyone involved:  higest possible stick/trigger times (i.e. highest learning for the noob), highest total air combat quality, highest fun factor, lowest disgust for the loser, and lowest amount of flying around doing nothing, chasing dots.


A+  on this

but sometimes I get in the mood I just wanna kill the red guy as fast as possible and as many, but yet I still wont Vulch  :rolleyes:

Offline captdan

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Re: Evil, evil HO, episode II
« Reply #56 on: June 30, 2009, 06:54:43 PM »
all this hoing talk lately is really starting to bug me. being fairly new to the game [3-4 months] i thought i would hold off on the head- on shot and wait for a more sportsman like shot tried it for two weeks had enough around 2out of 10 dont shoot i have had enough pilot wounds & lost oil.to the 2 who dont shoot i salute you for the rest if you meet me head on be ready the safety is off

Offline DrDea

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Re: Evil, evil HO, episode II
« Reply #57 on: June 30, 2009, 08:46:37 PM »
 You can tell the lame pilots real fast.They dont deviate from meeting you head on. Its the only thing they have in their playbook. If someone comes at you and evades a head on solution,then you just may have a fight on your hands. Good luck. :aok
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Offline captdan

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Re: Evil, evil HO, episode II
« Reply #58 on: July 01, 2009, 02:35:21 PM »
well said drdeath

Offline Dawger

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Re: Evil, evil HO, episode II
« Reply #59 on: July 01, 2009, 03:03:25 PM »
Because it's fun.  Because score doesn't matter.  Or because for some players, pwning in 1 move is old news.  It also makes the opponents bitter more often then not.  So what do they do?  Return in a high picker and/or with overwhelming numbers.  End result is the amount of stick and trigger time falls, overall. 
Also because killing quick everytime makes you less flexible.. Just about 90% of the arena makes the same mistakes, so that you're killing them the same way over and over again.  Boring and bad practice.
Also because it's hard.  You raise the handicap and get the equivalent of training with weights on your wrists and ankles.  It's more fun and useful to play against hard odds than breeze thru wet TP.  This ties right back in with #1.  Win-win for everyone involved:  higest possible stick/trigger times (i.e. highest learning for the noob), highest total air combat quality, highest fun factor, lowest disgust for the loser, and lowest amount of flying around doing nothing, chasing dots.

I'm not getting something here.

I get into a fight with a guy or two guys or twelve guys. If my first lead turn results in a tracking guns solution I should not take the shot so that I may extend the fight? What do i do at that point? Make a deliberate mistake so as to give the bandit some hope of turning the tables?

Having fought in thousands of 1 v 1 fights as a trainer I make it a point of not firing until the opponent is completely out of options when training. When he is out of altitude, airspeed and ideas its time to end his misery. Of course the student is instructed that there are no rules. i never fly a 1 v 1 with rules. Extending a fight in a controlled training situation has some obvious benefits. I don't see the point in the Main.


So I know all about extended fights but its seems rather silly to artificially extend a fight in the Main Arena once you have achieved a solid tracking shot.

And we train for the opposite. Just last night I spent 2 hours on the short end of 2 v 1 with squad mates. The entire emphasis was upon killing quick using solid teamwork. A good wing pair should get a first pass kill and three passes is my personal grading standard for a functional wing pair. If a 2 v 1 goes past three guns passes there are gross mistakes being made.

Most players fly the guns or what i call Kodak Instamatic fighting style. They only point the guns. I teach that the guns are only to let the opponent know he lost. You have to out fly him first. It is quite easy to grab angles against an opponent who is pulling for a snap shot at every pass in a nose to nose (One circle) fight. He has to aim and even a split second of aiming results in an angular gain for a max performing opponent. (This is assuming there is not a gross mismatch in sustained turn performance).

I get the idea that there is a large group of players who desire the security of the controlled 1 v 1 duel but do not wish to go find it in a controlled arena for a variety of reasons.

I can get all the 1 v 1 controlled fighting I could ever want and I do. When I fly in the Main I am looking for Massively Multiplayer Situation Awareness Challenges. I want a fight where I have to divide my time between my target and the bandits who have me as the target.

We used to talk about situation awareness and developing the high level of skill required to maintain SA in a multiple bandit fight. Now if someone takes advantage of a guy so target fixated that he refuses to look around, its called a pick (Something I enjoy being called because it means I achieved my goal).

Poor SA is a lack of skill or discipline not some noble, chivalric code being upheld by virtual cartoon warriors.