Axis need a real Bomber, Preferably mid - late war.

[Dowding]

 

Ahem. The Bristol Blenheim started to get into service in the RAF in 1938. Just as the Ju88 entered service in the Luftwaffe. Get your facts straight,please  .

lol!   I suggest it is you who should get his facts straight.

The first Blenheim prototype flew on 12th April 1935, and entered service in March 1937.

You're wrong again, dear boy.  

 

I think the He177A-5 was a damned fine bomber, when the engines didnt catch fire...

Err... hardly a good bomber then, is it! Reliability has to be a key part of the design of a good bomber.

Only 565 He177A-5s were built - compare that to 7,781 Mosquitos, in its various guises. Yet again the LW contingent look to A/C that were barely produced, and claim them to be a mainstream equivalent to a hugely produced Allied plane.  

That collective chip on the shoulder gets bigger with every post you lot make.  

[Karnak]

Staga,

"Ju88
Type: Bomber
Manufacturer: Junkers Flugzeug und Motorenwerke AG
Service Entry: 1939
Crew: 4"

And:

"The Blenheim was originally built in in England in 1934 as one of the first executive planes for the proprietor of the Daily Mail. Lord Rothmere wanted a fast plane capable of carrying six passengers, the pilot and the co-pilot. Equipped with two Bristol Mercury engines, the Bristol Type 142, as it was then called, was 30 mph (48km/h) faster than the RAF's new biplane fighter, the Gloster Gauntlet.

Bristol began designing a military version of their new aircraft, the Type 142M. The Air Ministry placed an order for 150 aircraft in the summer of 1935, and a second order for 434 more followed in July of 1937. The Type 142M, or Blenheim I, as it was now called, had a bomb aimer's station in the nose, an internal bomb bay, and a dorsal machine gun turret for self-defense. There was also a single machine gun in the port wing. The Blenheim was of all-metal construction, with the nose of the plane barely extending beyond the engines. It was equipped with two Bristol Mercury engines. When first revealed to the public, the Blenheim's speed attracted great notice and led to the belief Britain was armed with the best bomber in the world. This myth became self-perpetuating and soon two new production lines had to be set up as orders for still more aircraft were placed. A total of 1,552 Blenheim Is were built and equipped 26 RAF squadrons at home and in British possessions in Iraq and India.

Engines: Two 905-hp Bristol Mercury XV radial piston engines
Weight: Empty 9,790 lbs., Max Takeoff 14,400 lbs.
Wing Span: 56ft. 4in.
Length: 42ft. 7in.
Height: 9ft. 10in.
Performance: Maximum Speed: 266 mph; Cruising Speed: 198 mph; Ceiling: 27,260 ft.; Range: 1,460 miles
Armament: Five 7.7-mm (0.303-inch) machine guns, plus up to 1,000 pounds of bombs internally and 320 pounds externally."

You are comparing a purpose built bomber with an older light civilian transport that was modified to serve as a bomber, like the Do17.  Furthermore you are distorting the entry dates for both aircraft, particularly the Blenheim (I admit that I got the entry dates off by a year, the Blenheim seems to enter service in 1935 and the Ju88 in 1939, but they are certainly not both 1938 aircraft).

I stand by the Wellington being a better match for the Ju88, both in designed purpose and in service dates.

Comparing the Blenheim and Ju88 is simply displaying your Luftwaffe bias (comparing the Mosquito with the Ju88 was displaying my RAF bias).

------------------
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother

Bring the Mosquito FB.MkVI Series 2 to Aces High!!!

Sisu
-Karnak

[This message has been edited by Karnak (edited 05-01-2001).]

[Staga]

Karnak wtf are you talking about ????

All I typed was
"Maybe its time to allies have something like Ju-88 is, a early war bomber.
Like Blenheim or SB-2"

Ju-88 is a early war bomber and so is Blenheim and SB-2 too.


[This message has been edited by Staga (edited 05-01-2001).]

[brady]

The Piaggio P.108 was one of the heaviest and most powerfull bombers of the entire war.

 8 12.7mm Breda-SAFT,Internal bay for 3 torpedos,or up to 7,716lb's of bombs (3500kg)

 Max speed 267mph.

     

 This would be great AXIS heavy.

 I do have a soft spot for the He 177 though, and the P1Y1, Ki 67 and the H8K.

------------------
 

[This message has been edited by brady (edited 05-01-2001).]

[brady]

The Piaggio P.108 was one of the heaviest and most powerfull bombers of the entire war.

 8 12.7mm Breda-SAFT,Internal bay for 3 torpedos,or up to 7,716lb's of bombs (3500kg)

 Max speed 267mph.

     

 This would be a great AXIS heavy.

 I do have a soft spot for the He 177 though, and the P1Y1, Ki 67 and the H8K.

[This message has been edited by brady (edited 05-01-2001).]

[Staga]

The Junkers Ju88 was developed according to the third RLM request of 1935, which asked for a quick bomber aircraft. The developement was started under the designator EF59. Parallel designs for the RLM request were the Henschel Hs127 and the Messerschmitt Bf162. The developement was started by Zindel, Evers and Gassner in January 1936. The prototype construction began in May 1936 and on December, 21st 1936 Kindermann performed the first flight with the Ju88V1 D-AQEN

Taken from "Hugo Junkers homepage": http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/hzoe/ju_home.htm

[AG Sachsenberg]

First brady you ever checked your e-mail yet?  
Second Doodling what are your sources that state the dates you posted?  
Third the HE-177 according to combat reports would suffer attrition rates to mechanical difficulties comparable to allied bomber units.
Fourth
 

Only 565 He177A-5s were built - compare that to 7,781 Mosquitos, in its various guises. Yet again the LW contingent look to A/C that were barely produced, and claim them to be a mainstream equivalent to a hugely produced Allied plane.

Isn't that like comparing a 109 to a 410 production wise and operational status?  Why don't you compare it to the JU-88 and then you might see the numbers flipped around    Doodling I suggest you stick to your current job of not knowing anything then what is posted on the internet.  

------------------
 

Verkaaft's mei Gwand `I foahr in himmel!
Sell my clothes I am going to Heaven!

[This message has been edited by AG Sachsenberg (edited 05-01-2001).]

[Staga]

uhmmm... How many C-Hogs were in WW2?  

[Karnak]

AG Sachsenberg,
Um, I might be mistaken, but we already have a Ju88 in AH.  I think I can distinctly remember flying it though.

Yes, there were more Ju88s than Mosquitos and there were more Lancasters than He177s, but the Ju88 airframe and Lancaster airframe are already present (we could use 1 or 2 Ju88 variants at some point) in AH, so all is proper.

Staga,
The reason I reacted badly to seeing Ju88 and Blenheim in the same sentence is because when the Ju88A-4 and Lancaster MkIII were added to AH several Luftwaffe fans objected on the grounds that if they were getting the Ju88A-4 then the RAF fans should be getting the Blenheim MkI.  If you were not one of those guys, I apologize for jumping on you.  I still think that the best early war RAF bomber would be the Wellington though.

If the Ju88 stems from a 1935 RLM request, can I use the design request date on the Bristol Blenheim?  Its probably 1930 or 31.

I don't think its very accurate to describe service dates by using design request dates.  That'd make the Spitfire and 109 1932 aircraft.

FWIW, my two prefered bombers in AH are the Ju88A-4 and Lancaster MkIII.

------------------
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother

Bring the Mosquito FB.MkVI Series 2 to Aces High!!!

Sisu
-Karnak

[Dowding]

 

Second Doodling what are your sources that state the dates you posted?

Flypast Magazine, April 1999.

 

Isn't that like comparing a 109 to a 410 production wise and operational status? Why don't you compare it to the JU-88 and then you might see the numbers flipped around...

You miss the point. I am talking about AH here, and the introduction of aircraft based on their production numbers. Like Karnak kindly pointed out, we already have the Ju88 (I can back up his claim to having flown it  ), and for any kind of parity (factoring current requirements), the Mossie would be a better choice over a relatively rare LW aircraft.

 

Doodling I suggest you stick to your current job of not knowing anything then what is posted on the internet.

Nice of you to lower the tone of the debate, Sturm. I guess that's what having an IQ of 171 gets you - the ability to formulate highly amusing puns at the drop of a hat. You really are killing me here, comedic phenomenon that you are. Are you a writer for the 'Friends' show, by any chance?

As for the internet thing. Oh dear - I posted my non-net based sources in that discussion on the Falkland's War. Which incidently you didn't continue.

Sure, you have to be careful with the net and the veracity of information therein, but there is some reliable information out there.

Incidently, I didn't use the internet to gain a Masters Degree in Applied Physics.

[Replicant]

Hmm... the Blenheim (believe it or not) wasn't officially classed as a bomber and is no way comparable to the Ju88 - the Ju88 is a vastly superior aircraft to the Blenheim.  Blenheim's equipped RAF Fighter Command, not Bomber command (the Blenheim replacements was the Beaufort and the Beaufighter, which of course I would sooner have and are both 'early war').  I would put the Blenheim in the same class as the Hs129, Me110 etc...

Anyway, yes I agree that we need a decent Luftwaffe bomber and it's something I've been asking for over a year now.

The obvious choice would be the He177, or Ju290.  Of course the late war Arado 234 is a very nice addition but unfortunately one that is a perk plane.

Regards

Nexx

[AG Sachsenberg]

Dowd, ok I know I should have looked at the numbers closer, over 1100 He-177's were made.  As far as the JU-88 I think a different variant then the A-4 should have been used.  By 42/43 the A-4 was out of service, it just puzzles me as to why every game you see the A-4?

Looking into the numbers game
Ta-152 around 150
F4U-1c 200
Fw 190 A-8 1100
Fw 190 D-9 700- 950 or so
AR-234 no figure off top of head, was low.

 

You miss the point. I am talking about AH here, and the introduction of aircraft based on their production numbers. Like Karnak kindly pointed out, we already have the Ju88 (I can back up his claim to having flown it ), and for any kind of parity (factoring current requirements), the Mossie would be a better choice over a relatively rare LW aircraft.

On the contrary, one thing the Luftwaffe had was a bizaare amount of vairants within a certain aircraft production series.

Over 20,000 Focke Wulfs were made but that is broken down into the airframes that were involved such as the A-1 thru A-9, D-9 thru D-13 "14,15 were cancelled do to 152 production"  Even though they really were 152's.

Over 14,000 Ju-88's were made as well.  Broken down into sub variants as well.

I believe the number was 1,100 or so for the
HE-177 which would not put it as a rare bird.

Over 5,000 of the Me-110 but then again sub variants.

30,000+ for the 109, yet how many were the G-2,6, 10?  Truth being told the G series was the most manufactured of the 109's.

It really is hard to say well it is a rare plane when it comes to german designs, for they were not rare jsut certain modifications might have been.  On a side note once a plane rolled off the factory and reached its field it went thru another process, "spelling" Rustatze, "or field modification".

All these numbers are relative for I have no books in front of me.  But its safe to say yes they might have been low "variants" but production numbers were high.      

------------------
 

Verkaaft's mei Gwand `I foahr in himmel!
Sell my clothes I am going to Heaven!

[This message has been edited by AG Sachsenberg (edited 05-01-2001).]

[juzz]

How about a "flying suitcase", in Soviet markings, hehehe!

[-lynx-]

 

Uhh, just where ARE the fast bombers in AH???

It's called Ar234 and they din't come faster than that in those days
 

The wellington?...lol come on, the Wellington crews I'm sure were praying to god to have something as fast as the Ju88 for their night runs over Germany.

Are you sure? Sure-sure? Last time I was watching an ex-RAF Wellington pilot talking he was saying their crews were praying they wouldn't be flying anything else over Germany. The survivability of Wellingtons due to it's unique fuselage was legendary...

[R4M]

 

Originally posted by -lynx-:
Are you sure? Sure-sure?   Last time I was watching an ex-RAF Wellington pilot talking he was saying their crews were praying they wouldn't be flying anything else over Germany. The survivability of Wellingtons due to it's unique fuselage was legendary...

Well I tend to agree with that brave ex-RAF pilot...I would've been also Thankful to be flying a Wellington over Germany in 1940 and 1941.

Mostly because the other two choices to fly over germany those days would be to fly either a Whitley or a Hampdem. Wow what a perspective   Oh, yeah. I would had been VERY thankful to fly a wellington aswell  

But if you ask that same ex-RAF pilot if he would've liked a plane with 30-40mph more top speed-as the Ju88 had-, I would tend to think that they would've been more thankful to fly it than the Wellington  

So yes. I am sure. Sure sure