Brewster B-239 and the I-16

[Krusty]

No, I stated previously my comparison is to the F2A, and I'm also somewhat dubious about how much the airframe was "stripped down" for the Finns.

Several folks have pointed out that with this completely modified BREW we can't use it for anything BUT the Finnish front. Can't be used at Midway, can't be used anywhere in the PTO (SEA, where it had a noticable showing for a while). The plane can't be used for anything except in this one setup.

It is nice the Finns got a plane they've been longing for for ... what? ... 10 years now. However the usability of the plane by the AH community for many setups is nonexistent.

[mechanic]

Considering we often use Bostons skinned as Japanese bombers, this Brewster will be quite good enough, imo.
There is always the option to make further models or different loadout options, such as the mosquito with or without a bomb bay.

[Krusty]

Except in the case of the F2A being used against the Japanese, it had no advantages and was decimated instantly. We use the Finn-version and all of a sudden it's as capable as a zero (more so than the 5b!).

It would be like the FW190 fighting against zekes and out-turning them, to spin an example.

[hubsonfire]

And he's off and running...

[BlauK]

Krusty, like stated so many times before already, this Brewster is the despised "buffalo".
Maybe you can ask HTC to make the long nosed buffalo version for PTO.

[Saxman]

Krusty, like stated so many times before already, this Brewster is the despised "buffalo".
Maybe you can ask HTC to make the long nosed buffalo version for PTO.

AFAIK the airframe dimensions between the 239, 339 and F2A-3 are more or less identical. The difference is in weight and equipment.

That being said, I'd been pushing for a separate F2A-3/339 ever since Pyro started asking for data on the 239. The physical model is the same, how much more work would it be to include a version with the numbers plugged in for the heavier F2A/B-339?

[BaldEagl]

Did anyone else see this coming?

[BlauK]

AFAIK the airframe dimensions between the 239, 339 and F2A-3 are more or less identical.

Yes.. more or less. F2A-3 had the same engine as F2A-2, but it was set forward 9 inches due to balance (CoG) issues. Thus the longer nose.

[Karnak]

In regards to the P-47N fight I had, I did level out to build up speed, but the second I tried to use that speed (loop, yo-yo, high turn, whatever) the brewster was instantly there, and could hang on its nose indefinitely (never losing aim at me) while I did whatever manuver I was attempting. While the range was often 600-800 yards, I was avoiding death, but even using the speed, the only thing I could do was "disengage" -- could never use the speed because the BREW could simply float at all alts at any angle.


EDIT: That is what I did. I disengaged, and left the fight area. BREW couldn't follow, broke off and turned around.

I notice a certain hyperbole that you use whenever you discuss a fight you had with a manuverable aircraft.  I think you just don't really know how to use speed as a tool, thus the slower, more manueverable aircraft is "instantly" in position the momement you try to do anything but run away.  Your quoted rant could easily be one of your anti-Spitfire XVI rants if you just change the name of the enemy aircraft.  You claim as fact that the enemy aircraft does things that are demostratably impossible if you are accurately describing E states and manuevers.  I think you are misreading situations and/or not successfully accomplishing the manuevers ylu are attempting.

[Wmaker]

Brewster (F2A-3) weighs (fully fueled) 7159 lbs max, and your weight listed is barely over the "empty" weight of 4732lbs (2146kg).

What???

I've already mentioned in this thread that the weight of the F2A-3 in my table is actually the weight of the F2A-2. Not that it had any bearing with your original argument I was answering to, the moment you typed "1939 Brewster". F2A-3 is NOT "a 1939 Brewster", Model 239 is so that is the one we're talking about, that is the one that's in the game. YOU claimed that FM-2 has a lighter wingloading than a 1939 Brewster. Model 239 is "a 1939 Brewster" F2A-3 is NOT. Why are you suddenly saying this was about the F2A-3? It's impossible to have a discussion with you when you aren't making any sense at all. And btw, even though I had F2A-2 T/O-weight in place of the F2A-3 T/O-weight, none of those Brewster weights I listed are "barely over 2146kg" they are both way over it, when talking about a/c-equipment.

<sigh> This is depressingly futile. I feel like I'm talking to a wall of bricks.

[Widewing]

Except in the case of the F2A being used against the Japanese, it had no advantages and was decimated instantly. We use the Finn-version and all of a sudden it's as capable as a zero (more so than the 5b!).

It would be like the FW190 fighting against zekes and out-turning them, to spin an example.

Perhaps you are just being deliberately obtuse....

F2A-1/B-239 This is what the Finns received (44 of them) and what we have in the game.

F2A-2/B-339 This is what the RAF flew over Singapore and Rangoon.

F2A-3/B-439 This is what fought at Midway. Most of the Marine F2A-3s at Midway were shot down or damaged, but they were grossly outnumbered and the Zeros came in with a big altitude advantage. F4F Wildcats involved in the same fight didn't do any better than the Brewsters.

Here's some links to Dan Ford's material on the various Brewsters:
http://www.warbirdforum.com/eagle.htm

http://www.warbirdforum.com/midway.htm

http://www.warbirdforum.com/pappy.htm

http://www.warbirdforum.com/faf.htm

http://www.warbirdforum.com/saga.htm



My regards,

Widewing

[Guppy35]

Come on Krusty.  Let it go.  You are trying way too hard on this one.  Trust the guys who did all the research.  Fly the thing and have some fun.  Sometimes you just gotta let it go.  It's like you are looking for something to be mad at.

It's a Brewster Buffalo for heaven's sake.  It's not a world beater.  But it's going to be fun, and there is no reason it can't fly in Dutch, RAF, or USN markings too.

[Saxman]

Perhaps you are just being deliberately obtuse....

F2A-1/B-239 This is what the Finns received (44 of them) and what we have in the game.

F2A-2/B-339 This is what the RAF flew over Singapore and Rangoon.

F2A-3/B-439 This is what fought at Midway. Most of the Marine F2A-3s at Midway were shot down or damaged, but they were grossly outnumbered and the Zeros came in with a big altitude advantage. F4F Wildcats involved in the same fight didn't do any better than the Brewsters.

Here's some links to Dan Ford's material on the various Brewsters:
http://www.warbirdforum.com/eagle.htm

http://www.warbirdforum.com/midway.htm

http://www.warbirdforum.com/pappy.htm

http://www.warbirdforum.com/faf.htm

http://www.warbirdforum.com/saga.htm



My regards,

Widewing

Didn't the B-339 have added modifications done that left her significantly overloaded compared to the F2A-2? I want to think they gave it a less powerful engine.

[Widewing]

Didn't the B-339 have added modifications done that left her significantly overloaded compared to the F2A-2? I want to think they gave it a less powerful engine.

Those B-339s built to British requirements gained quite a bit of weight. Additional armor, self-sealing fuel tanks, additional radio gear, armored windshield and other equipment raised the weight by more than 800 lb over the B-239. Many of the RAF aircraft were delivered with commercial grade engines that were not engineered for a military aircraft operating at high power settings for long periods. These engines consumed a great deal of oil. The Finns discovered that reversing the oil scraper rings cured this, but the Brits and Dutch never figured this out. Power fell off quickly above 10k, and there wasn't enough fuel pressure for flying higher than that with manually operating the primer "wobble pump".

All of these things conspired to greatly reduce the effectiveness of the Brewsters.


My regards,

Widewing

[Widewing]

Dan Ford links to a Finn modelers BBS that has many photos of the only existing B-239. Our Finn friends may know of this site, but if not, here's a link: http://www.pienoismallit.net/galleria/referenssi_3090/


My regards,

Widewing