Author Topic: Brewster B-239 and the I-16  (Read 8284 times)

Offline Die Hard

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Re: Brewster B-239 and the I-16
« Reply #90 on: June 29, 2009, 04:42:40 PM »
Agreed, but that doesn't make it appropriate to Pacific settings.

It had such a minuscule role in the Pacific that I don't see how it is at all relevant. In my opinion it should only have Finnish markings, and not be used as a substitute for anything.
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Offline Guppy35

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Re: Brewster B-239 and the I-16
« Reply #91 on: June 29, 2009, 04:50:30 PM »
Problem being that this one removes the normal Japanese advantage leaving them in a very weak position.

Except that the Japanese due to lack of Ki-43 always have Zekes which gives them an advantage they really didn't have all the time.   I don't know about anyone else, but I'd rather fly this bird painted RAF or Dutch in "Rangoon" scenario then flying an F4F.  Somehow the immersion factor goes out the window otherwise.

Frankly I don't care that much about a small performance difference, when the look is so much more important for me in a scenario. 
Dan/CorkyJr
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Offline Guppy35

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Re: Brewster B-239 and the I-16
« Reply #92 on: June 29, 2009, 04:52:20 PM »
It had such a minuscule role in the Pacific that I don't see how it is at all relevant. In my opinion it should only have Finnish markings, and not be used as a substitute for anything.

I don't even know where to begin to refute this.  Shall we start with the Dutch, RAAF or RAF?

What is really cracking me up is folks getting this worked up about a new early war bird, as if somehow it's going to tip the balance in a scenario or the arenas.

Dan/CorkyJr
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Offline Karnak

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Re: Brewster B-239 and the I-16
« Reply #93 on: June 29, 2009, 05:04:14 PM »
Except that the Japanese due to lack of Ki-43 always have Zekes which gives them an advantage they really didn't have all the time.   I don't know about anyone else, but I'd rather fly this bird painted RAF or Dutch in "Rangoon" scenario then flying an F4F.  Somehow the immersion factor goes out the window otherwise.

Frankly I don't care that much about a small performance difference, when the look is so much more important for me in a scenario. 
My point stands if we are talking Ki-43s instead of A6M2s.  The very significantly better turning ability of the Finnish B-239 compared to the B-339 and B-439 outs the Japanese in a significantly worse position than was historically the case.
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Offline Guppy35

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Re: Brewster B-239 and the I-16
« Reply #94 on: June 29, 2009, 06:46:09 PM »
My point stands if we are talking Ki-43s instead of A6M2s.  The very significantly better turning ability of the Finnish B-239 compared to the B-339 and B-439 outs the Japanese in a significantly worse position than was historically the case.

That's all well and good.  But would you instead sub the F4F like they did in the last Rangoon Scenario instead of letting the Brewster participate?

That makes no sense to me.  The correct look is far more important then the minimal performance difference.  I'd rather look out my canopy and see correctly skinned Brewsters then F4Fs
Dan/CorkyJr
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Offline Karnak

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Re: Brewster B-239 and the I-16
« Reply #95 on: June 29, 2009, 06:52:47 PM »
That's all well and good.  But would you instead sub the F4F like they did in the last Rangoon Scenario instead of letting the Brewster participate?

That makes no sense to me.  The correct look is far more important then the minimal performance difference.  I'd rather look out my canopy and see correctly skinned Brewsters then F4Fs
I'd like to see Ki-43s and B-339s.   :P
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Offline Die Hard

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Re: Brewster B-239 and the I-16
« Reply #96 on: June 29, 2009, 08:12:39 PM »
I don't even know where to begin to refute this.  Shall we start with the Dutch, RAAF or RAF?

Yes lets... In-service numbers, service longevity and operational effectiveness (kills of IJNA/IJAA aircraft).

In December 1941 the British had only about 150 serviceable Brewsters left in operational service, defending Burma, Malaya and Singapore, and they were beset with problems. By February 1942 most of them had been destroyed and the few surviving Brewsters were converted into advanced trainers. The RAF/RAAF/RNZAF Brewsters claimed 80 kills on Japanese aircraft, mostly bombers. All other nations (America included) had less than 100 Brewsters in wartime service, only 21 U.S. Brewsters saw action. Just over 500 Brewsters of all models were built, less than half were servicable in WWII and even fewer saw action and they managed to kill even fewer Japanese aircraft.

Against the backdrop of WWII these numbers are statistically negligible. Only in Finnish service did the Brewsters have any noticeable effect whatsoever on the war. The 44 Finnish Brewsters shot down 477 Soviet aircraft and a few Germans for the loss of 15 of their own.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2009, 08:36:56 PM by Die Hard »
It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of nonviolence to cover impotence.

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Offline Guppy35

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Re: Brewster B-239 and the I-16
« Reply #97 on: June 29, 2009, 10:47:56 PM »
Yes lets... In-service numbers, service longevity and operational effectiveness (kills of IJNA/IJAA aircraft).

In December 1941 the British had only about 150 serviceable Brewsters left in operational service, defending Burma, Malaya and Singapore, and they were beset with problems. By February 1942 most of them had been destroyed and the few surviving Brewsters were converted into advanced trainers. The RAF/RAAF/RNZAF Brewsters claimed 80 kills on Japanese aircraft, mostly bombers. All other nations (America included) had less than 100 Brewsters in wartime service, only 21 U.S. Brewsters saw action. Just over 500 Brewsters of all models were built, less than half were servicable in WWII and even fewer saw action and they managed to kill even fewer Japanese aircraft.

Against the backdrop of WWII these numbers are statistically negligible. Only in Finnish service did the Brewsters have any noticeable effect whatsoever on the war. The 44 Finnish Brewsters shot down 477 Soviet aircraft and a few Germans for the loss of 15 of their own.

Great.  Lets lose the Ta152 and any number of other birds because there weren't many of them. 

Why would you deny the skinners and the scenario folks the chance to use a Brewster.  That makes no sense at all.  There is now this nicely done model of the Brewster.  Why not use it?
Dan/CorkyJr
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Offline Widewing

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Re: Brewster B-239 and the I-16
« Reply #98 on: June 30, 2009, 12:40:42 AM »
You know what is funny? The I-16 is nearly as agile as the Brewster. Very nearly as fast (2 or 3 mph slower), climbs better than the B-239 and is armed with a pair of cannons.... No whines about that one.

This all stems from the misguided view that the Brewster could not possibly be as capable as it is. This in turn is due to 60 years of brainwashing. 20 F2A-3s were chewed up at Midway, out numbered 2 to 1, attacked by better fighters with an altitude advantage. Not one of the Marines involved had ever flown a air combat sortie before that. They had no training on how to fight and defeat the Zero. Yet, they managed to get to the bombers and make several attacks before being pounced on by a mass mob of A6Ms. Most people forget that five F4F-3s were also in that group, and they did no better than the Brewsters. Those F2A-3s and F4Fs were credited shooting down 10 Japanese aircraft, with 1 probable  and 3 damaged. In exchange, they lost 12 Brewsters and 2 Wildcats.

Not bad when you consider that they were fully engaged with Japanese bombers when attacked by a superior force, with altitude. We should also consider that these were the cream of Japanese naval fighter pilots. The bulk of the Brewster pilots lost were Marine reserve pilots, mostly 2nd Lt types with limited time in fighters.

People remember the comment of one surviving pilot, Captain Philip Renee White, who stated that "any commander sending pilots into combat in F2A's should consider them lost before they leave the ground." In his post-combat report, White estimated that the Zero had a top speed of 450 mph. Another pilot thought the Zero's rate of climb exceeded 5,000 fpm. Typical of inexperienced pilots in their first combat.

What they never read about was that the F4F was vilified in after action reports as well. Dan Ford has written, "the pilots knew that F2A was being phased out from active service and used as a trainer, which made their criticism fierce. However, the F4F was also criticized; one of the recommendations was that both F2A and F4F should be withdrawn from combat units and 'retained for use at training centers only'. Lt. Col. Ira L. Kimes claimed that F4F 'is hardly better in combat than is the F2A-3 type'". The fact is that there is little doubt that the results would have been the same had these Marines been flying F6Fs or F4Us.

Let's say we select 20 low-time AH2 pilots. We put them in B-239s. Their mission is to attack large formations of D3a and B5N bombers. Once engaged, they are attacked by really good air to air squad, say the Muppets in A6M2s. The Muppets are several thousand feet higher. Any doubt of the outcome? Would noobs blame the airplane? Probably. However, we should rightly believe that the tactical situation, greatly exacerbated by the quality of the enemy pilots created the result. Had the noobs been in Spit16s they still would have been slaughtered.


My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Delirium

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Re: Brewster B-239 and the I-16
« Reply #99 on: June 30, 2009, 12:44:04 AM »
I'm looking forward to the Hurri, Spit, and Zeke drivers complaining about the Brewster.  The thing hasn't even been released and people are whining. :rofl

The I16 and, in particular, the Brewster will change the furball in AH, relax and enjoy it gents.
Delirium
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Offline Karnak

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Re: Brewster B-239 and the I-16
« Reply #100 on: June 30, 2009, 01:13:56 AM »
Widewing,

I have no issues with the Brewster's performance as a B-239.  I just don't think it is appropriate for settings other than Finland vs Russia (or minorly Finland vs Germany) as it is very close to the A6M2 in manueverablility, almost as fast, far more durable, has better guns and has excellent high speed handling for diving.

It will be interesting to see how it plays out though.
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Offline Guppy35

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Re: Brewster B-239 and the I-16
« Reply #101 on: June 30, 2009, 01:17:33 AM »
I'd like to see Ki-43s and B-339s.   :P

I'm all for the K-43 and another model Buffalo should they decide to.  The more they can add to the early war plane set to expand the accuracy of scenarios, the better it will be.

But if all we have is the B-239, denying it scenario use outside of Fin Rus would be silly.
Dan/CorkyJr
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Offline moot

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Re: Brewster B-239 and the I-16
« Reply #102 on: June 30, 2009, 01:40:52 AM »
Great.  Lets lose the Ta152 and any number of other birds because there weren't many of them.
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Offline Guppy35

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Re: Brewster B-239 and the I-16
« Reply #103 on: June 30, 2009, 02:27:13 AM »
Whoa, hang on there..

LOL thought you might notice that :)

I trust you also got my point :aok
Dan/CorkyJr
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Offline moot

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Re: Brewster B-239 and the I-16
« Reply #104 on: June 30, 2009, 02:30:09 AM »
hehe
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running very fast
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