Author Topic: Aircraft durability  (Read 2819 times)

LJK Raubvogel

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Aircraft durability
« Reply #30 on: January 17, 2001, 03:57:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Vermillion:
For the @*##$@@%!!!!! 4,829th time Every Gun  in Aces High is modeled this way. NOT just the HISPANO

You guys keep making it sound as if its wrong because its only the hispano that has this advantage. Not true, they all have this.

So, you're saying that every Mauser round is AP and M-geschoss? I find that very hard to believe.

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LJK_Raubvogel
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[This message has been edited by LJK Raubvogel (edited 01-17-2001).]

Offline mrfish

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Aircraft durability
« Reply #31 on: January 17, 2001, 04:11:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Tyro48:
remember E=MV  the closer you are the more damage you do.

actually KE=1/2 mv sq.

what you are describing is momentum - :0

Offline Vermillion

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« Reply #32 on: January 17, 2001, 04:57:00 PM »
 
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So, you're saying that every Mauser round is AP and M-geschoss? I find that very hard to believe

No what I'm saying is that every round is representative of mixed ammunition.

In the case of the Mauser ammunition, even during the height of the bomber offensive in 1944 on the Western front, the Mine shell was only used 1 in every 3 shells.

I think it was Hooligan that did some work on the AH damage ratio's (using hanger kill tests back in 1.03) comparing the Hispano vs the Mauser. He (or whoever did it) found that the damage ratio was too close for the mauser and hispano to be using HE/AP/HE/AP etc etc. In other words he found that the Mauser was doing more damage than that ratio, indicating that the mine shell was in the mix,  possibly like HE/AP/Mine for the mauser while the hispano was shooting HE/AP.

Which would match the historic data of its use.

So no, your not firing, AP/Mine/AP/Mine , but the tests indicate that the mine shell is in the mix somewhere.

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Vermillion
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Offline fd ski

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Aircraft durability
« Reply #33 on: January 17, 2001, 05:13:00 PM »
When will you get it into you thick skulls that main F4U-1C adventage is its ammo load.
It carries 400 rounds + for each bank !! That's 8 times more cannon rounds then spitfire !!!
At least 3 times as much as tiffy.
Prabably 2 times as much as 190.

In this plane you can fly around and take every fricking shot you fancy and don't give a damn. Do that in Tiffy - you'll be out of ammo in 10 seconds flat.

F4UDOA - 1: Tiffy stinks upstairs - thats' why it was withdrawn to ground pounding role - apples and oranges.
2: Look at number of missions flown in zeke and compare it to number of those in 51. You can't just extrapolate them and compare them like that. Zeke is one of the most rare planes in the area - usually flown by an experianced pilot. on the other hand, 51 is every newbie's favorite - "cause my granddad flew one !!!"


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Bartlomiej Rajewski
aka. Wing Commander fd-ski
Northolt Wing
1st Polish Fighter Wing
303 (Polish) Squadron "Kosciuszko" RAF
308 (Polish) Squadron "City of Cracow" RAF
315 (Polish) Squadron "City of Deblin" RAF

Turning 109s and 190s into scrap metal since 1998

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Offline Jigster

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« Reply #34 on: January 17, 2001, 07:01:00 PM »
Well here's what I don't like:

F4U-1C = represents 1776 Hispano rounds on a 2:2:1 AP:HE:Tracer (assuming it's different then AP for the sake of argument) or 1848 of a 2:2 AP:HE mix


Fw-190A8 w/ 4 20mm = 1383 Mauser AP + HE rounds on a 1:1 basis + mine (includes 1:3 ratio mine shells) (no tracer ratio)

Fw-190A8 w/30mm = 888 Mauser AP + HE rounds (1:3 mine shells as well) plus only 110 30mm Mk 108 rounds (HE-mineshell only) (no tracer ratio)

P-51 ( 6 gun config) 3609 rds of 2:2:1 AP or AP/I, Ball, Tracer ammo.

That's taking into accout properties of common rounds for the gun worked into each shell as if they were different to distingish the two (most are) . If all bullet strikes hit the same object that's the amount of historical rounds that virtually hit the target.

Actual results, such as on armor:

F4U-1C = 462 AP rounds

Fw-190 w/ 4 20mm = 260 AP rounds

Fw-190 w/ 30mm = 167 AP rounds

P-51D = 752 AP or AP/I rounds (940 including tracers)

It's a monsterously unbalancing set up, if anything else is considered going to be considered historic. Every round is a double hit or triple hit in precisely the same place. The damage model can't be anywhere near historic realise (which is leathal enough as it is) because ALL rounds have X2 or X3 their hitting power, plus the side effect of simultaneous hits.

I've not really for player selected ammunition. That's to much of a hassle for programming an interface and all that bull...However I hope eventually that the FE can be programed (or already is capable of) to distingish strikes of different ammunition from the same gun in fast firing guns, along with ballisitc characteristics that differ from round to round. The capabilities in the physics engine are their, evident in the Panzer. It can also tell the difference between a 20mm and a 30mm, or a 13mm, or even different rounds from different guns of the same caliber.


Until the round type snafu is handled there's really no point in debating damage modeling from a historical POV, because whatever a plane's toughness, it's going to have to be at least 2X to compensate for the guns. And along those lines, alot of the guns lose out. Most have good HE preformence but poor AP preformence and really lose out to the Hispano because of it. This also screws up the bomb's destructive power as well. Everything has to be toughend up the compensate


Unfortunately you either get all capabilits or only one capability, in which case your going to mess something up either way  

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33rd FW www.33rd.org


Offline SageFIN

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Aircraft durability
« Reply #35 on: January 18, 2001, 10:52:00 AM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Jigster:

I've not really for player selected ammunition. That's to much of a hassle for programming an interface and all that bull...

Actually, even the infamous freehost of the WB had the option for player selected ammo belts. I have no idea how complex it was and how well it worked but the fact is that it's something that definitely can be done.

It could be considered ahistorical though and a better compromise would perhaps be separating the ammo types and getting rid of the synthesis ammo but keeping ammo belt control out of players' hands.

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Offline ispar

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Aircraft durability
« Reply #36 on: January 18, 2001, 05:49:00 PM »
Nath - according to Japanese ace Saburo Sakai in his book Samurai! states that the kill verification rules for the IJN were extremely strict, to the point od be ludicrous at times. A plane had to be seen to crash or the pilot bailed to be counted, the only exception being an obvious fire or a missing wing. Feel free to dispute this, I don't know how accurate this account is, but I'm inclined to go with it.

chisel

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Aircraft durability
« Reply #37 on: January 19, 2001, 12:00:00 AM »
Like running in circles.

Eh PYRO?