Great Graphics,older computers..tough balance

[RufusLeaking]

I vote for game play over eye candy.

I agree.  But, it is a fact that eye candy sells. 

As long as people can get a good frame rate with current or better graphics, the game will do just fine.  It will probably be a good thing as old timers will stay and new players arrive.

Yes, I know, there is an "exclusive club" set of people on this BBS who rage against noobies.  We were all new to the game at one time or another.  More is better.

Regarding upgrades, my philosophy is to get last years' bleeding edge off the discount shelf today.  So, I'll probably be enjoying the new graphics in a year or so.

One more thing on graphics.  If more useful information can be presented, then upgrading is a good thing.

[TEShaw]

Just for conversation sake I am a working class hero


Pipz

A working-class hero is something to be.

[Shuffler]

You don't need a top of the line machine to play. If your on an old out dated machine you might have to updats a graphics card or something. You can't drive on the highway without a car. If you have a car then it has to be able to do the minimum posted speed on the highway.

[mechanic]

A working-class hero is something to be.

i'm just working class how do i reach heroic status?

[Motherland]

Last year I bought a game for my daughter called "Oblivion" (at Best Buy). I did not realize the specs required to run this game. Turns out the game was being returned by almost every customer. Parents were not going to upgrade or buy a $2500 computer for thier kids to play a game.

Currently this game has a very small following. It never made it because the makers did not consider the min specs and what that meant to the customers base ( kids) who would be playing this game.

Oblivion is one of the most popular RPG's I can think of (as someone that is not really into RPG's).

If the new AH2 can not be played on a "mid range" spec computer it will fail. If it can then all is good.

That really doesn't have anything to do with it... the beta for 2.14 can be played on my 'mid spec', if you could call it that, computer great, with everything turned on & up except for self shadowing, which mutilates frame rates. 'Mid spec' computers can handle this game easily. The question is whether it can be played well on low end computers, which I'm fairly sure it easily can on low settings, which is what you should be expecting if you've got a 5 year old rig.

Regarding upgrades, my philosophy is to get last years' bleeding edge off the discount shelf today.  So, I'll probably be enjoying the new graphics in a year or so.

Aces High's graphics are not 'bleeding edge', and they never will be because so much of the player base has low end rigs. You can enjoy the new graphics now, considering two generation old NVIDIA cards can easily run the game 2.14 beta at very high settings.

One more thing on graphics.  If more useful information can be presented, then upgrading is a good thing.

This is a pretty driving thing. With computers things progress very very fast. Software developers want to take full advantage of the current generation of computers because it makes the games more appealing- outside of graphics, newer games also have better physics engines etc., making the game more realistic and (with the help of better graphics) more immersive, which makes the game better in my book (although gameplay is the defining factor). Which is why computers become obsolete so quickly.

[Wingnutt]

mid spec, at mid settings.. seems fair..

mid spec.. maxxed out settings.. cmon... be realistic.

if your still on on-board video.. seriously... you have gotten away with that long enough.

Ive seen people go through the  "@&$^ i gotta upgrade my *#$^* computer now, what a crock!"

you know how it ends up?

"i cant believe how smooth it is!! ,its like a different game!!"  I cant believe, wow,, wow I can see your nose art!! , Wow.. Its so smooth,  WOW, im running the high res textures HAVE YOU SEEN THIS!?..  my god its smooth.. im at 60fps and everything around me is ON FIRE.. and its STILL SMOOTH!!!  wow,  its so smoo  */.SQUELCH newpcguy*

[RTSigma]

Updated graphics could mean bringing us closer to realism. Its one thing for the FM to be realistic and accurate, but combined with the looks it'll be a great visual experience.

[Knite]

What EXACTLY are the NEW min requirments to play the new version of AH2 (the beta)? Are these specs listed yet?

#1, it's a BETA. As in, IN TESTING. Minimum required specs as stated by HTC are aimed to be similar to AH2's minimum specifications, however, as the beta is still considered "unreleased test", minimum specifications are subject to change. (as is anything that is not yet released officially)

Last year I bought a game for my daughter called "Oblivion" (at Best Buy). I did not realize the specs required to run this game. Turns out the game was being returned by almost every customer. Parents were not going to upgrade or buy a $2500 computer for thier kids to play a game.

Please tell me where you get this information from, as I think you're just pulling it from your nether-regions. Plus, in no way do you, or DID you need a $2500 computer to play Oblivion. I spent less than $800 on mine over 2 years ago and can run Oblivion (as well as everything except perhaps Crysis) just fine.

Currently this game has a very small following. It never made it because the makers did not consider the min specs and what that meant to the customers base ( kids) who would be playing this game.

Just FYI, the main customer base for Oblivion is NOT kids. It's adults. Aged 18-35. It's rated M for mature, mature meaning 17+ like a rated R movie.
Even with that, Oblivion is one of the highest selling PC games. But don't take my word for it...
http://www.joystiq.com/2006/04/10/oblivion-records-record-sales-1-7-million-and-climbing/
As far as it having a "very small following", all I've got to say is "ha".

If the new AH2 can not be played on a "mid range" spec computer it will fail. If it can then all is good.

Perhaps you are are under a false impression of what a "mid range" computer is anymore. My computer was not bleeding edge when I built, it, and 2 years later is considered aging low-mid range, but still handles everything I throw at it just fine.

If you go look at new computer systems they are graded like this....Gaming system, office system, graphic design system...etc. They are graded by what you intend to use the computer for. A simple analgy is tools. You can buy a cheap cordless drill for the wife to hang pictures or you can buy a heavy duty commercial drill that you can use every day all day long and drop it all you want.
It all depends on what you are going to use it for.

There is some truth to this statement. However, at the same time, you fail to mention how there are even grades of difference between even "commercial" drills or "consumer" drills in terms of price, performance, and reliability.
Plus, you go to use an analogy of buying the right tool for the job, but then complain when the job requires a better tool? Even the technology in drills has improved, or we'd still all be using those hand held crankable mini-auger looking things.

All I can say if a game is desinged for high end systems it will fail. If it is designed to work on a mid range system it will succeed.

From what I've seen with the Beta so far, it is absolutely not designed for a "high end system". Dawn of War II, Fallout3, and Oblivion are all games that are harder on hardware than this beta appears to be.

So, will AH2 succeed in making the game better in some way (see all the posts on the wish list forum) or will it just be a game that added eye candy with no real improvement in game play.
I vote for game play over eye candy.

As do I, but if I can get icing on my cake, why not put on the icing too? Plus, doesn't "eye candy" add to the immersiveness and realism, which enhances game play?

[Yossarian]

My current computer (a 5 year old Dell ) used to get 15-20 fps on a good day.

I upgraded the RAM from 512MB to 4GB, and got rid of the old NVidia Geforce FX5200, and replaced it with an ATI Sapphire HD 3650.

Now I get anywhere from 60-100 FPS.

This was a total of about £80, or $132.24 (according to Google).  Also, in games like Battlefield 2 and Flight Simulator X, which were both previously unplayable, BF2 is now brilliant, and FSX works quite well  .

[Agent360]

#1, it's a BETA. As in, IN TESTING. Minimum required specs as stated by HTC are aimed to be similar to AH2's minimum specifications, however, as the beta is still considered "unreleased test", minimum specifications are subject to change. (as is anything that is not yet released officially)

Please tell me where you get this information from, as I think you're just pulling it from your nether-regions. Plus, in no way do you, or DID you need a $2500 computer to play Oblivion. I spent less than $800 on mine over 2 years ago and can run Oblivion (as well as everything except perhaps Crysis) just fine.

Just FYI, the main customer base for Oblivion is NOT kids. It's adults. Aged 18-35. It's rated M for mature, mature meaning 17+ like a rated R movie.
Even with that, Oblivion is one of the highest selling PC games. But don't take my word for it...
http://www.joystiq.com/2006/04/10/oblivion-records-record-sales-1-7-million-and-climbing/
As far as it having a "very small following", all I've got to say is "ha".

Perhaps you are are under a false impression of what a "mid range" computer is anymore. My computer was not bleeding edge when I built, it, and 2 years later is considered aging low-mid range, but still handles everything I throw at it just fine.

There is some truth to this statement. However, at the same time, you fail to mention how there are even grades of difference between even "commercial" drills or "consumer" drills in terms of price, performance, and reliability.
Plus, you go to use an analogy of buying the right tool for the job, but then complain when the job requires a better tool? Even the technology in drills has improved, or we'd still all be using those hand held crankable mini-auger looking things.

From what I've seen with the Beta so far, it is absolutely not designed for a "high end system". Dawn of War II, Fallout3, and Oblivion are all games that are harder on hardware than this beta appears to be.

As do I, but if I can get icing on my cake, why not put on the icing too? Plus, doesn't "eye candy" add to the immersiveness and realism, which enhances game play?

At the time I bought Oblivion it has just been released...like in days on the shelf. That was over 2 years ago. At that time the game was being returned by many many people at the loctaion I bought it at becuase it required "at that time" a high end system to run it. At that time the mid range computers like most college kids have for school would barly run the game....technically it would run but it was basically unplayable.

I really have no other information about the game so I could be wrong an the other accounts. But it doesn't matter. It was just an example of how a games success can be related to the min specs of the average computer user.

Knite, you obviously disagree with everything I said in my earlier post which is kinda strange. I cant believe none of my points got acroos.

I am not under the false impression of anything. I build my own systems as well.

I am just saying that as a 40+ y/o adult who likes to play a game that requires "brains" and not twitch skill that I would prefer a game..this game...to improve in ways that better the actual game play. I agree that nice graphics are ...welll nice. If I could have it all I would take it all.

But, if the game becomes something that forces me to run it at min specs...everything turned off/down/unchecked and I end up playing a game that struggles to function then that is a bad thing. Not just for me but for everyone.

I am sure that whatever AH2 is doing now their "dream game" ( i dont mean the beta I mean what they would build if there no limits) will run on any computer 2 years from now. They just have to figure out how to get   from now to there without loosing players.

I think this is really up to the hard core coders who are writing the code. There are limits. From an engineering point the its a problem to be solved. If you let the "graphic designer" dept rule the roost you will have a game that wont run. If you let the Coders rule the roost you have a game that no one can fig out how to use.

It's quite simple. Build a game that exceeds the average computers ability ...no body will play it. Build a game that runs fairly smoothly on mid range computer (current mid range) no problems.

As for the really low end computers. It just like what happend to dial up internet. As a web designer I eventually had to stop designing pages for those users. I had to draw the line. It cost too much time to do both low and high bandwidth versions. I didnt want to keep building pages of text just to the dial up users could see it too. Things do move on.

I agree if you have a very low end computer that struggles to run this game it time to upgrade something.

I just dont want to see ah2 go craZy with the graphics and push the mid range users out the door.

[dkff49]

WOW you guys have really gotten away from Kam's OP.

I think he was trying to start a thread to hash out the allowance for low res while upgrading the graphics at the same time. While some of you guys are still on the kick of telling others they just leave if they can't afford to upgrade. For one this arguement has come up many times and has gone nowhere except that HT has decided that it would do all it can to keep the player base it has (maintaining customers is much easier than getting new ones) while trying to keep things up to date to get in the new ones.

Secondly part of the problem of getting in new players is the learning curve IMHO not graphical issues. Many of the younger players don't want to take the time to learn anything and think it should be like their console FPS and be able to get their kills after 10 minutes of playing, not to mention their cheat codes.

Finally to get back to Kam's argument. I think it is in good interest to try to keep things playable for the most amount of people. I too have witnessed a few times that people seem to have shots on me through hills and trees, but I think this is mostly from lag or some kind of difference between machines more than a graphical adjustment. I could be wrong but the amount of times this happens seems very rare and after looking at the new version with things turned down I don't really see it being any worse than the current version is. As a matter of fact I have the current version running maxed out and have taken a few shots at gv's that look like they are going through a hill (just under the edge) and land hits and even get kills, so this is not always that someone is turning down graphics to do it. Sometimes I think the problem is more where the computer shows the objects to be to the user and where it actually registers it at.  (I really don't kow how else to explain it)

Anyway this is my take on the question originally asked.

[WMLute]

Last year I bought a game for my daughter called "Oblivion" (at Best Buy). I did not realize the specs required to run this game. Turns out the game was being returned by almost every customer. Parents were not going to upgrade or buy a $2500 computer for thier kids to play a game.

Currently this game has a very small following. It never made it because the makers did not consider the min specs and what that meant to the customers base ( kids) who would be playing this game.

I really have no other information about the game so I could be wrong an the other accounts. But it doesn't matter. It was just an example of how a games success can be related to the min specs of the average computer user.

Oblivion shattered all prior sales records (1.7 million sold in its 1st year, a feat that was only beat by it's follow up release Fallout 3) and as of 2007 has sold over 3,000,000 copies.

Define "small market" and "never made it" for me please.

Oblivion was (is) one of the most sucessfull games ever made, high spec. included.

So much for your "theory".

(back on topic) I am pretty sure I read that the curret specs for AH will be the same for the new release.

Don't let the Beta freak you out, as there is a low-res option for the new release that wasn't included in the Beta.

If you can fly now, you should be able to fly no problem when the new release comes out.

[baine1]

So you think AH should be configured in such a way that better, faster machines give an advantage in the game?

You're comparing completely different types of hobbies. And I like AH in part because it is NOT like the video game racket with its millions of good little mindless consumers.

It's not a "truth," it's a state of mind, and a bad one. It's exactly what got us into this s*** we're in today, people piling up mountains of debt and pawning our future to the Chinese and Saudis in order to buy the newestlatestfastest consumer goods they don't need and can't afford. It's idiotic, is what it is.

That doesn't mean AH should never be upgraded. It DOES mean there are valid reasons for not wanting to see it turn into an electronic arms race.

What he said ...
Not sure it makes sense to require folks to spend money to upgrade at a time when lots of em are wondering if they are going to have enough cash to pay the mortgage.
I've been playing the game since 2000, flying around the arena these days I don't hear many folks complaining the graphics stink.
Still, it seems to me every effort is being made to minimize the impact on frame rates - efforts I applaud.

In the past, when HT has made changes that impacted the frame rate, they've usually come back and found ways to minimize the impact. I know, cause I was among the crowd moaning and groaning about the change.
So I have faith and hopes for this update

[mechanic]

When Aces High 1 became Aces High 2 I was unable to afford the upgrade. I sat on the forums for six long months wishing i could play the new game. Finally I was able to afford to start a hire purchase deal on a new PC. I had just formed a new squad with some good friends in AH1 and when i returned i felt like a new comer at first. It really was frustrating being exluded but I never once expected everyone else to suffer it with me. It was my short coming in the system requirements
 I know what it is like to be left behind. This time I wont be. Why should I not enjoy this moment? Does not mean I don't feel bad for thoe who cannot keep up. I was one of them. This time it may be your turn to sit out for six months so I can enjoy the improved product.

 

[Anodizer]

Friends, pile-its, and countrymen(I fly all three, so......)....Lend me your ears!!

Upgrading your PC does not have to be expensive!!  
Hell, you could probably build an entirely "new" system better than what you currently have for less than you think!

You don't always need the latest and greatest!  I know a lot of you guys have issues with eBay, but I've found them to

be a reliable source for acquiring used parts (tested of course with warranties) such as older CD2 cpus, older high-end video cards (my Geforce 6800GS AGP runs the beta great!),

memory, etc.  

Not sure why everyone is against doing an upgrade if you do it intelligently...  You don't need anything close to the latest and greatest to run the beta..  And I'm sure after any bugs

are worked out, it will run even better on lower end machines...

I've got so many Pentium 4 and Pentium D machine guts that I could probably put together a decent system for about 10 of you guys for under 100 bucks..  

I put together my wife's system a few months ago...  Check this out....

C2D e4500 2.2ghz----> bought this CPU used off of eBay for $25.00....  Works perfectly...
Crucial Ballistix pc6400 2 gigs------>$30.00 new in the package from eBay..
Geforce 6800 Ultra PCI/e 512------>$20.00 from eBay (I swear!!)
OCZ 650 watt PSU-------->$40.00 after rebate and is the only item I bought new....

I had a case laying around as well as a 120 gig Sata drive and cd/dvd rom, keyboard, mouse....

It's not that much money!  I bet some of you could even get better deals than that!!

I bet some of you could get away with upgrading processor and ram and be fine with existing video card...

Also, some of you could try overclocking if you're feeling confident...  I had some real success in oc'ing my

Pentium 4 and Geforce 6800GS...