Rating system for AH fighters

[RAM]

   

Originally posted by Buzzbait:
S! RAM
What you are getting confused about is the Spitfire's high compressibility threshold.  The very thin wing of Spitfire allowed it to be dived up to very high speeds without going into compressibility.  A FW190 could dive just as fast, in fact dive faster, but it would go into compressibility much sooner.  It takes the Spitfire much longer to reach those kinds of extremely high speeds.  By that time a FW190 or a P-47 or a P-51 will have long since caught up and passed it.

Buzzbait

No,I'm not confused about this (At least I think   ). The Spit dive acceleration is not great...UNLESS you dive at 0G. Then its  decent. And when I was saying that the spit was a great diver I was referring to its lack of compression at high speeds. THe spit could maintain controled dives at terrifying speeds, in excess of any other plane. That is what I am trying to point out    

Tony Williams said:
I don't rate the MG-FF as useless; with M-Geschoss shells it had considerable destructive power and the velocity was higher as well. The destructive effect of the 30mm MK 108 was far greater than any 20mm, though; each shell had about four times the quantity of HE.

The MGFF has very bad ballistics,low muzzle velocity and relatively low hitting power. Being on the extreme of the wings mean too that their dispersion is higher, and harder to hit with them. And last, but not less important, as we lack the switch to select individual cannon fire in the 190, you must fire all the cannons at the same time, and the MGFF screws my aim completely. (Same happens to me with the MGs, thats why I always only fire cannons, never MGs, in the 190)

 The MGFFs are not worth the weight they mean so I simply dont load them in the Fw190A5.

The MK108,I agree,it is the hardest hitting weapon in aces high, by far. BUT, it is a weapon to be used only on the closest range (<150 yards). THat kills any advantage of hitting power that it may have.

Snefens:

huhm will have to look to my books again. I think that the P47D with DTs had less range than the P38L, but now that you affirm the opposite, I dont know for sure.

Regarding the 109G10 with DT and the Yak9, I know that the range of the 109 with DT is more than the yak with 100%. What I mean is that you can't rely in the DT, as you have to drop it as soon as you enter a combat, and then you are depending on your internal fuel. The DT its a valuable asset but believe me that less than most here can imagine  .

Jimdandy:
when compressed, trim tabs do very very very slight effect, and in a P38 still less. It has dive flaps, tho ,and that can help to get it out of the dive. But once compressed, a plane can't rely on trimming to do anything but pull out of the dive.

Maybe you are confussing with the 109 at 400IAS. the 109 needed in real life very high stick forces, even more when the speed increased. The control lockup you feel over 400 IAS in a 109 is NOT compression (in fact 109 compresses at very high speeds), but control lockup due to very high stick forces. Trim tabs can overcome this effect, and so it is possible (but VERY difficult) to fly the 109 effectively over 400 IAS-but not to do combat maneouver in it.    




[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 01-16-2001).]

[straffo]

 

Originally posted by Tony Williams:
I'd start a campaign up if I were you - the NS-37 armed Yak-9s were very common, with several thousand being built.

As a bonus, it was the only fighter capable of knocking out a Tiger tank with its standard gun armament!

Tony Williams
Author: "Rapid Fire: The development of automatic cannon, heavy machine guns and their ammunition for armies, navies and air forces"
Details on my military gun and ammunition website: http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~autogun/index.htm  

Yep I know but I don't want to be jumped by whinner   I think it will be a perk plane.
But it would be a fine way to end the ostdweeb  

[straffo]

 

from RAM
Regarding the 109G10 with DT and the Yak9, I know that the range of the 109 with DT is more than the yak with 100%. What I mean is that you can't rely in the DT, as you have to drop it as soon as you enter a combat, and then you are depending on your internal fuel. The DT its a valuable asset but believe me that less than most here can imagine

but at lest you have the choice to have one ...

[Vermillion]

Tony, as Straffo said, the Yak-9U in Aces High only has the standard armament of x2 12.7mm UBS MG's and the single ShVak 20mm cannon.

I have lobbied Pyro, long and hard, to add the Yak-9UT (T,TK,K) armament options to the Yak here.

From my discussions with him on this BBS on that issue, it seems that he wants to do it as a seperate varient so that he can control it better thru the perk point system (PPS? ).

He also stated that its most likely that we would not recieve any varient with the 37mm or 45mm NS cannons. They're just that good. They would open up just about any armored vehicle like a tin can, and thereby removing the need for more traditional ground attack aircraft such as the IL-2, Stuka, or 40mm Hurricane.

But it is likely that we would see the x3 B-20 20mm cannon varient, and potentially the x2 B-20's and x1 NS-23 23mm.

I guess we can only wait and see, but I would love to see some of the big gun Yak's in the game, given that the planeset is heavily weighted towards "cannon-birds".

------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

[M.C.202]

RAM said:
 ****************************
> C205:
> 1. Speed = 3
> 2. Climb = 4
> 3. Dive = 3
> 4. Durability = 2.5
> 5. Range = 3
> 6. Armament = 3.5
> 7. Ordinance load = 1
> 8. High speed handling = 2
> 9. Low speed handling = 4
> 10. Multi-purpose = 0
> Total: 26

It would seem that the historic record and this ranking don't match in four areas:

3. Dive = 3
"Moreover the Exceptionaly clean airframe permited a high diving speed to be reached quickly..."

4. Durability = 2.5
The M.C.202/205 was rated as strong or stronger airframe as the P-40's, and tougher
than Spits.
"As stated before the structure was quite strong, as were all fighters desigined by
Castoldi, and was able to take heavy punishment and perform violent aerobatic manoeuvres."
What game/real life change is there?

8. High speed handling = 2
I have read about "light and ballanced control forces at all speeds"(close but not exact
quote), so what game/real life change is there?

10. Multi-purpose = 0
Not great, but two bombs up to 330lbs were/could be fitted.

So how does the game plane vary from what was the historic perception? If charts of control forces are there, I will bow out... :-)

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M.C.202
Dino in Reno

[RAM]

 

Originally posted by M.C.202:
It would seem that the historic record and this ranking don't match in four areas:

I dont know much about the historicar C205, so I used the AH's as a test bed to puntue it. I was tempted not to do it at all (thats the reason its the last one of the planes I put there), but well as I did, I explain my puntuations.

3. Dive = 3
"Moreover the Exceptionaly clean airframe permited a high diving speed to be reached quickly..."

Ah's C205 tends to drop one wing when accelerating fast. Plus, I've never had problems to follow one on a dive in my Fw190A5. So, a 3 for it.


4. Durability = 2.5
The M.C.202/205 was rated as strong or stronger airframe as the P-40's, and tougher
than Spits.
"As stated before the structure was quite strong, as were all fighters desigined by
Castoldi, and was able to take heavy punishment and perform violent aerobatic manoeuvres."
What game/real life change is there?]

In AH, the few times I've flown a C205 in the Main, most of them I've been sustained radiator damage with relative ease. 2.5 in my book, sorry.

8. High speed handling = 2
I have read about "light and ballanced control forces at all speeds"(close but not exact
quote), so what game/real life change is there?

In AH over 400mph the C205 feels mushy, and needs constant triming to adapt itself to the change of speeds. Maybe I'be been too hard with it, and a 2.5 would've been more fair.

10. Multi-purpose = 0
Not great, but two bombs up to 330lbs were/could be fitted.

in AH none. And I took the AH's plane as the base of my puntuation. Yak9s and La5s also carried in RL rockets and small bombs, and I gave them 0.

Straffo, I know that its better to have DT than not to have it. Is the reason why I edited my puntuation on the G10 and put a 2 when I had put a 1.  

[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 01-16-2001).]

[Tony Williams]

 

Originally posted by Vermillion:
Tony, as Straffo said, the Yak-9U in Aces High only has the standard armament of x2 12.7mm UBS MG's and the single ShVak 20mm cannon.

I have lobbied Pyro, long and hard, to add the Yak-9UT (T,TK,K) armament options to the Yak here.

From my discussions with him on this BBS on that issue, it seems that he wants to do it as a seperate varient so that he can control it better thru the perk point system (PPS?  ).

He also stated that its most likely that we would not recieve any varient with the 37mm or 45mm NS cannons. They're just that good. They would open up just about any armored vehicle like a tin can, and thereby removing the need for more traditional ground attack aircraft such as the IL-2, Stuka, or 40mm Hurricane.

Not really - the Yak-9 wasn't armoured against ground fire, so the Russians preferred to leave that job to the Il-2.

Tony Williams
Author: "Rapid Fire: The development of automatic cannon, heavy machine guns and their ammunition for armies, navies and air forces"
Details on my military gun and ammunition website: http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~autogun/index.htm  

[Hooligan]

Tony:

In this game, a lot of people don't care much if they die as long as they accomplish their goal, so sacrificing a few yak-9s to stop an armored attack is no big deal in AH  .

Hooligan

[M.C.202]

RAM said: quote:
> I dont know much about the historicar C205, so I used the AH's as a test bed to puntue it
> I was tempted not to do it at all (thats the reason its the last one of the planes I put there), but well as I did, I explain my
> puntuations

Not a question on your scoreing of the M.C.205 in the game, but rather on the change from the
historic "buzz" on the aircraft to that in the game.
Thanks for the feedback. The trim thing is odd, as the M.C.200/202/205 were sort of self trimming.

------------------
M.C.202
Dino in Reno

[funked]

Well we haven't had any comments yet from a Spit driver:

Spitfire F. Mk. IX

1. Speed = 3
Very good in a narrow altitude range near 25k.  At other altitudes one of the slowest.

2. Climb = 3
The most common Spitfire IX variant could do 4500 fpm but ours won't reach 3800 fpm...

3. Dive = 3
Nothing special here.

4. Durability = 2
One of the most fragile in both the power plant and structure.

5. Range = 3
Drop tank is nice.

6. Armament = 3
20 mm are potent but have a tiny ammo load.  MG's are useful only in an emergency.

7. Ordnance load = 2
3 bombs but not much tonnage.

8. High speed handling = 4
As is well known, it could be dived to very high speeds without losing control.  However in AH we don't have aileron reversal so it rolls slightly too well.

9. Low speed handling = 5
A little sluggish sometimes but forgiving.

10. Multi-purpose = 2
Ordnance load limits usefulness against ground targets.  Range makes bomber escort difficult.

Total= 30

[StSanta]

Nice writeup funked.

------------------
StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"

"I am the light at the end of your sorry little tunnel." - A. Eldricht

[Lephturn]

Lets take a look at one of my favorites, the F6F-5!

1. Speed = 2
Not a fast plane.  One of the slower birds in the AH planeset.

2. Climb = 3
Climbs pretty well for a big beast, middle of the road.

3. Dive = 4
This beast can DIVE.  Dive is it's best attribute.  Although it doesn't do the high-speed dive quite as well as the Jug or Hog, it's low speed dive accelleration is great, and can catch "better diving" planes in the early stages.

4. Durability = 4
It's pretty much a tank.  Right up there at the top, though not quite as legendarily tough as the Jug.

5. Range = 3
Drop tank is nice.

6. Armament = 3
6x .50's is a nice gun set, but lacks the hitting power of cannons.  Nice ammo load.

7. Ordinance load = 3
Reasonable, but not as much or as flexible as the better Jabo planes.

8. High speed handling = 4
Great high speed handling and E holding ability.  Not as good as a Pony or a Hog, but better than average for sure.

9. Low speed handling = 2
Although it has decent low speed turning capabilities, it has a NASTY stall.  In AH at least, the Kitty's stall is sudden and severe.  You don't ride the stall horn in the Kitty if you want to live.

10. Multi-purpose = 3
Although not excelling as an escort or an attack fighter, it can perform these roles.  Not a great interceptor either, but a good air superiority or point defense fighter.

Total= 31

Interesting.  Maybe we'll do another thread and rate the planes specifically in particular roles, such as air superiority or interceptors.  Maybe it would make more sense to rate 'em for certain tactics such as E fighting, BnZ, or TnB.

Just as a note, I find the Kitty to be one of the best E fighters in the game.  It can work an E advantage very well, and turns well enough to nail about anything if it has a bit of extra E to burn.  A high F6F-5 is a very dangerous thing.



------------------
Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs  http://www.flyingpigs.com
 
"A pig is a jolly companion, Boar, sow, barrow, or gilt --
A pig is a pal, who'll boost your morale, Though mountains may topple and tilt.
When they've blackballed, bamboozled, and burned you, When they've turned on you, Tory and Whig,
Though you may be thrown over by Tabby and Rover, You'll never go wrong with a pig, a pig,
You'll never go wrong with a pig!" -- Thomas Pynchon, "Gravity's Rainbow"

[Ripsnort]

Funked, agree with most of your write up except one: Speed.  when measuring speed, one must also measure acceleration since there is no measurement in this formula for it, so, I would give Spit9 a 5 in acceleration, a 3 in top end speed, therefore a 4 overall.

[funked]

Rip, I included acceleration.  It is a VERY slow plane below 20k.

[This message has been edited by funked (edited 01-17-2001).]

[Ripsnort]

Why, its the fastest accelerating plane in AH?!