Author Topic: P47 (Read 1857 times)

niklas · « **on:** July 12, 2000, 11:16:00 AM »

Is this a 14500lb fighter or a 8000lb fighter ?
I just ask because it is so wonderful to fly- no not over 20k where it should shine, near the ground.

Without much exercise i was able to fly a sustained turn with 100% fuel in ~27seconds (!!), with 25% it will outturn even a yak with ~22.5 seconds. Flaps one notch down of course, like all american fighter compared to non-american it has also some "more lift without much drag" flaps.

It has also a wonderful abillity to hold it´s E imo. IMO the current P47 behaves a little bit like a ufo, at least i don´t think that a 14500lb fighter can fly like the P47 in AH

niklas

mx22 · « **Reply #1 on:** July 12, 2000, 12:39:00 PM »

Are you comparing P-47 with 25% fuel to Yak with 100% fuel? That wouldn't be a correct comparasion. Also, note that Yak turns better to the left (I think it's left) due to the engine torque.
Wonderful ability to hold E... Hmm lemme see... NO! Try flying Spitfire, that plane has wonderful ability to hold E.
All in all, I don't know how correctly Jug is modeled, just making your numbers not to sound as bad as you make them look like.

mx22

Fishu · « **Reply #2 on:** July 12, 2000, 01:14:00 PM »

I've tried it... it feels like an ice cube on the ice with the way it keeps its E.
While Typhoon and F4u's seems to lose E when you bit turn those.. (specially Typhoon)
I bet you could BnZ some superior fighter to yours for long time in P47 currently, if you have advantage. (never runs out of E!)

Ripsnort · « **Reply #3 on:** July 12, 2000, 01:15:00 PM »

I have a pet name for the Jug~
The Spit47...

<G,D,R>

Fishu · « **Reply #4 on:** July 12, 2000, 01:16:00 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by mx22:
Are you comparing P-47 with 25% fuel to Yak with 100% fuel? That wouldn't be a correct comparasion. Also, note that Yak turns better to the left (I think it's left) due to the engine torque.
Wonderful ability to hold E... Hmm lemme see... NO! Try flying Spitfire, that plane has wonderful ability to hold E.
All in all, I don't know how correctly Jug is modeled, just making your numbers not to sound as bad as you make them look like.

Of course spitfire is horrible with its E retention, but for P47s tank weight, its sure does keep E well when going up or turning.

...I always thought that going up in P47 was same as suicide - that is not true in AH

Westy · « **Reply #5 on:** July 12, 2000, 01:50:00 PM »

"..I always thought that going up in P47 was same as suicide - that is not true in AH"

Would this be a legacy of how the real aircraft performed or a legacy of past AW and WB's flight models?

I'm happy with the aircraft. For once flying in a Jug I have some of the performance that I'd only read about in books.

-Westy

mx22 · « **Reply #6 on:** July 12, 2000, 01:51:00 PM »

Fishu,

I'm not sure about P47s turning ability, cause I don't turn in this plane. About vertical, well it's a slow climber, I recently tried climbing in Spitfire and seemed like a rocket to me after P47. Zoom climb is very good though, just as it was in RL.

mx22

niklas · « **Reply #7 on:** July 12, 2000, 02:37:00 PM »

no mx, try a sustained turn with a yak, 25% fuel. That means turn as many circles until speed is constant and stop the time for the next 2 circles (to minimize the mistake of the measurement). Yak has a nasty low speed handling.

westy, in books you usually read, though often not mentioned, stories of fights above 20k. Things are completly different in 20-30k. In which altitude did the bomber came in? Where flew the escort fighter? When allied fighter write that they were able to turn into axis fighter, or outroll them, or outclimb them, then you have always to ask in which altitude this happened!

climbing abillity with 100% ~3000ft/min with 25% ~3600ft/min. For such a heavy fighter very good imo. Don´t forget it has a wing which is designed to carry many external loads, that means usually a bad surface quality, drag, lower max lift coeffizient etc. But it looks like wing data of a faired and sealed wing is modelled... .

niklas

Westy · « **Reply #8 on:** July 12, 2000, 03:23:00 PM »

"...it has a wing which is designed to carry many external loads.." Actually the P-47 was designed as a high alt interceptor/bomber escort and later on was adapted to the role of fighter-bomber, utilising the strong wings. The elliptical wings (same as Spitfire) wings were designed for fighting, not carrying heavy orinance in a light bomber or jabo role. They just worked out well that way.
As for lower alt performance? It's dead meat against most fighters but works well in a furball when enemy pilots have thier attention distracted or when flown by a good pilot against a pilot of lesser ability. As for it's climb rate. Well it had a decent climb rate, owing in no small part to that enourmous and hugely powerful radial engine up front.

-Westy

[This message has been edited by Westy (edited 07-12-2000).]

Fishu · « **Reply #9 on:** July 12, 2000, 03:40:00 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by mx22:
Fishu,

I'm not sure about P47s turning ability, cause I don't turn in this plane. About vertical, well it's a slow climber, I recently tried climbing in Spitfire and seemed like a rocket to me after P47. Zoom climb is very good though, just as it was in RL.

It does zoom bit too good to me.. also doesnt get too slow if you turn with it, while typhoon is after very gentle turn as slow as Fokker Dr.1

Well.. if its not the P47, then I must ask that in the thread "Typhoon is uncontrollable high speed rocket"
where would read that Typhoon loses speed in the next moment you try to turn plane for a bit.

niklas · « **Reply #10 on:** July 12, 2000, 05:04:00 PM »

The wings are only pseudo-elliptical. Even a Spitfire has not 100% elliptical wings, and it´s obvious that the wing of a P47 is a bit farer away from the perfect elliptical wing compared to the wing of a spitfire.

And it doesn´t help much, due to the weight they were forced to give the P47 a big wingarea. To keep it manoeverable they were forced to design a - for this wingarea - small wingspan, the result is a low aspect ratio of only ~5.5 . This means usually more induced drag, what is important in a slow flight.

The P47 is NOT dead meat in a low alt fight, not at all!

When the modelled P47 is a fighter, why all the external loadout variants? Can the fw190 have the loadout variants of the 190F then please?

niklas

Kieren · « **Reply #11 on:** July 12, 2000, 05:59:00 PM »

I can't speak for the 190A8's loadout abilities. I can tell you that many American fighters were capable of carrying external ordinance despite being primarily fighters. The P47 turned out to be the penultimate ground attack fighter bomber for the Americans (due to its ability to carry ordinance and toughness).

It is not out of the realm of possibility for this version of P47 to be fitted with hard points. Argue its E retention if you like, but it could carry these loads, and that was pretty much stock configuration after a time. What the 190 could or couldn't do has nothing to do with the argument.

Finally, the P47 was designed as a fighter, but anything that carried guns was used as ground attack by the Americans by late war.

DmdBT · « **Reply #12 on:** July 12, 2000, 07:41:00 PM »

I can certainly appreciate the P47's ability in a zoom climb but I am only getting about 2500fpm in a 180ias climb from takeoff with usually 50% fuel and the center droptank. What climb speeds are you setting to get the 3k+ roc from the deck?

T

niklas · « **Reply #13 on:** July 13, 2000, 05:02:00 AM »

DmDBT, i use 160mph auto speed without droptanks. The best climbrates are often near 160mph. Start from F8/Sealevel and note climbrate when it´s constant (2-3k)

Kieren, you´re right, I´m not interested in the loadout of a P47

So there exist stories of excellent zoom climb abillity of the P47, yes?
There are also reports of excellent zoom climb abillity for the P38
And for the P51
And for the 190
And a 109G10/K or Spit14 were definitly very good zoom climber too, only few other planes had such a good power/weight ratio.

When there are so many good zoomer, than one plane isn´t anymore something special right? So why all those reports? Maybe because pilots don´t compare their AC to other AC they never flew, or to enemy AC, but to AC they flew earlier - P40, P39, Spit5.. training AC???

niklas

mx22 · « **Reply #14 on:** July 13, 2000, 08:19:00 AM »

niklas,

160 auto speed in P-47??? Hmm on my end P-47 at around that speed becomes uncontrollable and I have to drop nose to pick some speed up. I'll test this when I get home though.

P.S. Never heard anything about zooming ability of BF109G/K and Spit14. They did had excellent climb rate though.

mx22

[This message has been edited by mx22 (edited 07-13-2000).]