Video Card UpGrade

[Skuzzy]

I was not referring to you humble.  I was referring to Masher, as it pertains to the name calling.

Do not worry humble.  If I think you said anything out of line I would comment on it.  I try to stay out the conversations, as long as they make sense and do not lead someone down the wrong path.

[Getback]

I have a tough time with which video cards. For one I go against the grain of many and choose ATI. I've found them dependable. Having built 4 computers in the last 2 years and all with ATI I have yet to experience any issues. I cannot say the same for Nvidia. I had an 8600 that failed to work completely in 2 different computers. It would work but then it wouldn't run some videos. In the end it was annoying. I realize it was some type of driver issue. Still, the ATI cards worked very well from the start. Yet, there are builders, like TD and Baldeagl, who strongly prefer Nvidia. I don't doubt there experience.

The power supply requirements that many have posted about are crucial. You cannot emphasize that aspect enough when pulling a system together. It's just wrong to grab a high tech board, video card, cpu, and then have the thing wimper.

[BaldEagl]

Hehe, just as I thought, the silence is deafening.

I must say it's rather funny that you are still quoting manufaturers recommendations on what a certain video card draws, despite clear evidence from numerous hardware review sites, that the power consumption of a whole system (and that are rather top notch ones) including the card in question, does acutally draw less power than the minimum recommendation for the card alone.

So my point still stands: If one of you guys can prove that a 9800GT draws significantly more than 120 W (just the card, not the system!) in any application, I'm all ears. It just has to be a independent 3rd party test, no manufacturer claim. 

 

Here's a pretty good article:  http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/geforce-radeon-power,2122.html 

In it you'll find that most video cards need 110-270W from the PSU and that that is roughly 1/2 the total system power requirement so total power needs to be in the 220-540W range.  Factoring in 80% efficiency (most PSU's are less efficient) means you need 275-675W for a modern video card (314-771W @ 70% efficiency).  So, you need ~300W for a low end card in a "normal" system and ~700W for a high end card in a "performance" system (with anywhere from 11-32 amps respectively on the 12V rails to accomodate only the video card).

These numbers are in alignment with manufacturer specs.

The article goes further to break down the power usage of most of the components in the system.  I'm curious why you insist on looking only at the video card requirement.  I don't know of anyone who's running only a video card isolated from the rest of a system.

Any more proof needed?

[humble]

Toms is a good source but the problems that exist are simple.

No clear definition of what "full load" is. We see that even when trying to spec a system for AH....benchmarks are funny things and in then I think you trust the manufacturer and his recommended minimum specs. Basically your saying that at maximum load a 9800GT is drawing less then 12@ of power at max load and less then 5@ in normal use. Practical experience negates that, anyone with significant experience building a gaming box would never go there. Looking at the explanations of efficiency raise further questions. Generally the PC power and cooling turbo-cool 510 is the benchmark for 500W units (IMO). It requires 650W to deliver 510W at 50C. This is 78% efficient at sever temps. Yet the article assumes 85% efficiency without any exploration of environment. Excess power is converted to heat and a generic 500W PS will only give 80% efficiency at 25C (if at all). At a normal 40C environment that number will be in the 65% range or less. So not only is the "500W" number normally less (450W is more likely) but actual output at 40C is normally 300W or less. Constant high demand from the GPU will cause temp increase over time lowering actual output even further. This increasing heat compunds the problem since the GPU itself is less efficient at higher temps and draws more power itself.

We see this pretty often in AH where players often state that their machine "acts up" after playing the game for a period of time. The simple reality IMO is that playing a game like AH that can consume tremendous system resources will tax even a good system during sustained play. Any system with a PS issue will suffer a lot more stress then placed via the tests we see used for comparison purposes. 

So....

1) Trust the VC technical specs not a 3rd party...unless they will warranty your card when it pops
2) Realize that your PS might not be generating even 60% of its rated power after an hour of playing AH
3) Power supplies and other components laboring at the edge of their capabilities generate a lot of heat.
4) This heat further erodes performance and leads to premature system failure

Accordingly....

Build out your box in accordance with the general spec sheets that quality gaming boxes use. Please find me any top end performance PC built around even a top end 500W PS. After all the whole system "only" uses 230W max.....

By the way have I told you about a piece of property I've got....

[Tr1gg22]

well dell just sold me a gt250 hd 1 gig ddr3 that recommends 400w power supply.. I was online looking at the specs when we were talking... The thing is  my ps is at 350w... Well it is there computer i just bought it couple of months ago and it still has a 2 year warranty... What I am getting at is should I trust them? They will be loosing the money out of there own pockets if things overheat because of a low ps..Right? I brought up the ps issue to him ,he told me not to worry that it would work fine...Then he tried to tell me why it would work fine ,but I just couldn't make out what he was saying...But..for another 50 buks on my account I can get US Reps anytime I call tech support Anyway please let me no what u pc literate folks think about that...

[BaldEagl]

Basically your saying that at maximum load a 9800GT is drawing less then 12@ of power at max load and less then 5@ in normal use.

Where did I say that?  In my posts I stated the manufacturer recommended PSU for the 9800 GT several times as minimum of a 400 Watt power supply with +12 Volt current rating of 26 Amps.  That said, if the article at Toms is right and the video card is drawing half the power from the PSU then the card would draw somewhere over 13 amps ( probably closer to 18 amps because if a 400W PSU had 26 amps on the 12V rails then about 100W would be allocated to the 3.3 and 5V rails with another 100W allocated to additional 12V components).

Please find me any top end performance PC built around even a top end 500W PS. After all the whole system "only" uses 230W max.....

By the way have I told you about a piece of property I've got....

Again, show me where I said that a top end performance machine can be built around a 500W PSU.  I stated specifically that such a sytem required a minimum of 700W.  I also stated that the bare minimum PSU for a low end system running a low end video card was 300W.

BTW, my own machine is running a PCP&C 750W silencer.

Spin the numbers any way you want from here on out.  I'm out of here.

[Masherbrum]

Where did I say that?  In my posts I stated the manufacturer recommended PSU for the 9800 GT several times as minimum of a 400 Watt power supply with +12 Volt current rating of 26 Amps.  That said, if the article at Toms is right and the video card is drawing half the power from the PSU then the card would draw somewhere over 13 amps ( probably closer to 18 amps because if a 400W PSU had 26 amps on the 12V rails then about 100W would be allocated to the 3.3 and 5V rails with another 100W allocated to additional 12V components).

Again, show me where I said that a top end performance machine can be built around a 500W PSU.  I stated specifically that such a sytem required a minimum of 700W.  I also stated that the bare minimum PSU for a low end system running a low end video card was 300W.

BTW, my own machine is running a PCP&C 750W silencer.

Spin the numbers any way you want from here on out.  I'm out of here.

Running it on mine too.   I'm through with this thread as well.   

[Getback]

well dell just sold me a gt250 hd 1 gig ddr3 that recommends 400w power supply.. I was online looking at the specs when we were talking... The thing is  my ps is at 350w... Well it is there computer i just bought it couple of months ago and it still has a 2 year warranty... What I am getting at is should I trust them? They will be loosing the money out of there own pockets if things overheat because of a low ps..Right? I brought up the ps issue to him ,he told me not to worry that it would work fine...Then he tried to tell me why it would work fine ,but I just couldn't make out what he was saying...But..for another 50 buks on my account I can get US Reps anytime I call tech support Anyway please let me no what u pc literate folks think about that...

Well, I'm not as literate as some but man that is cutting it close. However, I have been told that every product has a built in threshold limit of 10% above specs. I sure cannot prove that. Maybe some EE's will jump in here.

[Masherbrum]

well dell just sold me a gt250 hd 1 gig ddr3 that recommends 400w power supply.. I was online looking at the specs when we were talking... The thing is  my ps is at 350w... Well it is there computer i just bought it couple of months ago and it still has a 2 year warranty... What I am getting at is should I trust them? They will be loosing the money out of there own pockets if things overheat because of a low ps..Right? I brought up the ps issue to him ,he told me not to worry that it would work fine...Then he tried to tell me why it would work fine ,but I just couldn't make out what he was saying...But..for another 50 buks on my account I can get US Reps anytime I call tech support Anyway please let me no what u pc literate folks think about that...

Keep the PC and buy this to put into it.   http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817703016

Now I'm through with the thread. 

[Getback]

Keep the PC and buy this to put into it.   http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817703016

Now I'm through with the thread. 

wow, what a bargain! I paid around $110 for mine.


Addendum: doh, mine's a 750 quad.

[humble]

I wasn't responding to you there Bald....

[BaldEagl]

I wasn't responding to you there Bald....

Sorry but it seemed that way when you started out talking about the Toms Hardware article I posted then rolled into the rest of it.

[humble]

No I was simply trying to point out that they didnt really give enough 411. If your saying (booze and potentially Toms) that a VC under full load is drawing less then half the manf recommended min power consumption then you need to revisit your procedures IMO. They also got into efficiency for a 500W power supply with regard to actual current draw. There raw numbers are flat out wrong and beyond that they don't even begin to address the operating test environment that generates those numbers. 265W has always (current hardware) been the benchmark for a decent system under normal load. As you said the VC doesn't exist in a vacuum. I have no problem with the idea that under "normal" load a 9800 draws 12@ or so (even in AH). Now if however the player is in a furball, defending a base...being attacked by a CV group...and the field is burning....what is your load out with both the CPU and the GPU maxed out for 12-15min of sustained play? How much has the operating temp of the system increased. Lets say that the case temp was 32C at the start and 45C at the end. Every part of the system degraded in performance and drew more power during that time and got less efficient...generating more heat.

Thats why a good build starts with quality components and is clean with good airflow, correct internal air pressure and well configured cooling/case fans. Any system (even a good one) will be generating less available power and consuming more while throwing off more heat during sustained play. To just say that a VC doesnt need even the manf recommended minimum power and that a "generic" PS of unknown reliability and marginal rated power has "plenty of oomph" is just incorrect IMO.

You dont need a monster PS but you need one that will deliver enough power at realistic temps. Very few generic PS's can do that reliably over time....many not ever. It doesn't really matter in a non gaming system where a 400W PS delivering 165W at 45C is actually fine. But if your running a demanding app that puts a constant high load on thr system like AH does it will show. Thats why so many people have comments like it runs (insert boxed game) just fine so AH must be badly coded, "out of date" etc. Well the reality is this is a lot more complex and demanding on your PC then the eye candy game your referring to is. I've got a PC power and cooling in my box as well...if your going to run higher end stuff you need a higher end PS....end of story. It didnt used to be this way, you can find plenty of posts here where I've told people they'd be fine with lower rated and even generic PS's. The reality is those days are gone. Now cheap power supplies are just that....cheap. And even well respected brands from days past are just known names on cheap stuff. If you run a VC that requires a separate 12V feed that lead better be attached to a PS you can trust....

[Vulcan]

Is a GTX 285 a good card?

I just got one for nicks on a dodgey deal 

[BaldEagl]

Is a GTX 285 a good card?

I just got one for nicks on a dodgey deal 

It's a great card as long as you have the power to run it.