Woe is the Sturmovik.

[Hooligan]

The IL-2 was a very nice ground attack aircraft but rarely seen in the MA, especially used as a ground attack aircraft (I see them more often rolling from a capped base and used for base defense).

Here is why I think this is the case.

Durability:  I don’t think the AH damage model does justice to the IL-2 in terms of toughness.  I believe this is due to the nature of the AH damage model.  I believe a much higher proportion of aircraft actually died from damage to the engine/cockpit/fuel/oil systems rather than structural damage (i.e. stabilizer destroyed) as in AH.  This really hurts IL-2s in AH since unlike every other aircraft in the game they have complete armor coverage over the most vulnerable areas of the aircraft.  They should be significantly harder to shoot down than the other single engine aircraft.  But in AH they are not that tough IMO

Vehicle toughness.  I believe the 23mm guns on the IL-2 should be more far effective against the GVs than they are.  The open-topped GVs in particular are all unrealistically tough IMO.

Speed:  IL-2s are slow.  The bases are so far apart that this is a major disadvantage.

Given the extreme toughness of real IL-2s and their excellent ground-attack weapons load-out they should make good MA aircraft.  I hope that someday changes to AH are implemented which make the AH IL-2 more accurately reflect this.

Hooligan

[pdog_109]

There is a couple things wrong with the AH IL-2 model. I think they put too much on it, real IL-2M3 which they modeled couldn't carry that much stuff because it was very heavy from extra armor. The extra armor doesn't do much, like you said. If they model the IL-10 then it will see more use.
Il-10 saw extremely limited service over Europe. It entered service in January of 1945 with a production run of only 125 airframes. At the end of the war in May of 1945, there were only 146 operational Il-10's on the front. It was also plagued by many problems with it's AM-42 engine, which did not help it's combat record.
Late war uber plane. It could dogfight and even shot down 109s in A2A combat. A IL-2 ace shot down 12 109s. Good considering there task was soley mud moving. I once flew a IL-2 on a mud moving sortie to an airfild. (where else to move mud?).
Anyway i came in and took out AI flak gun, and saw a vechile spawn. It was M-16.
I shot him from 700 to point blank range with 23mm cannon and the MG. He pinged me not to much damage. Of corse i taught he blew up. Go to rear gunner he is still alive! Ok extend to 1.2 range and pull up to go around again. Thats were the guy opens up and i fall apart to pieces.
1.2 range with .50 cal on a heavy armed IL-2 and i fall apart. I have the film if anybody wants to see the baloney.

[ 08-19-2001: Message edited by: pdog_109 ]

[pdog_109]

BUMP

[CyranoAH]

That's nothing.

Wait 'til you are shot down by a M3... so much for the IL2's toughness.  

Daniel, aka Cyrano

[Tilt]

Originally posted by Hooligan:
The IL-2 was a very nice ground attack aircraft but rarely seen in the MA, Hooligan

If you look at the airfield maps you will see various 37mm and 4 x 20mm ground guns.

Also in the MA the tendancy is to use Flak's (Ostwinds)in a proportion to tanks that is far off the ratio used in the battlefield.

Small raids undertaken by IL2's would (in the main) have had to contend with machine gun pits not massed cannon fire.

Raids against airfields would have involved many IL2's with fighter escorts.

If you want to "relive" the role of the IL2 against an enemy airfield I suggest you get to gether with 9 squad mates and attack at low level from under dar in a line abreast formation.

Of course attacking even a "small" airfield you will find more durable ground targets and more powerful ground fire than most typical forward airstrips used during the GPW.

Tilt

[GRUNHERZ]

I fly the Il2 a lot.

Here are the problems in AH Il2 that I see.

1. The GV "50cal" model. A single 50cal on the M3 or LVT can kill an Il2 even to the point of ripping its wings off. It will in most cases destroy the engine in one pass.

2. The armor model of panzer IV tanks is ok they die in one pass usaually. However the Ostwind open turret, the M3 opentop and the M16 open semi-turret are still not well modeled inmho.  
I feel that the "50cals" should be easily killed on at leat M3 and LVT. At leat as easily as the unprotected Il2 gunner dies.
And the crew must be killable on all GV, including any tank commander sitting in the cupla and firing the roof MG.

3. Tail weakness and airframe weakness. First the Il2 tail was a known weakness to LW pilots. It was known to be highly loaded and stressed and it did come apart rather easier than the reast of this rellt tough plane. However I feel it really comes apart too easy in AH, especially to 50cals, and most particularly to even single GV 50cals.

4. The engine dies too easily to any frontal hit. The Il2 had some 10mm armor over the entire engine area yet its engine ios mre vulnerable than any fighters ive flown except the P38 and Fw190. In light of this extreme vulnerability this may be a bug.  However it could be an HTC gameplay adjustment to prevent Il2 HO tactics.

5. Fire. Il2 were most often killed by hitting the oil cooler and easily setting it on fire. They were also killed by hitting an unarmored pressurized fuel tank between gunner and pilot. Both hits guaranteed quick destruction and neither are modeled in AH.

[osage]

They made 36,000 Sturmoviks.  Only 6 are left.  Unbelieveable.

I got to see one last week.  Here's the crappy snaphot below.

Took it at the Paul E. Garber restoration facility of the Smithsonian.  They traded some aircraft for it.

Cheers,

--Osage

 

[ 08-21-2001: Message edited by: osage ]

[brady]

WOW I PUT MY PAW ON THAT ONE 2 It is one thing to see it in the photo another to see it close up, the whole front end is not your every day thin metal covering, it is armor the whole outer skin is armor on the front of the plane all around the engin and the piolet it is most impresive.

  BTW to the left of this plane is a P1Y2, do you have a shot of it?

[Karnak]

It sure doesn't feel armored in AH.

[GRUNHERZ]

The whole front is coverd with IIRC 10mm armor plate that is actually the aircraft outer SKIN. If you look closely at it it actually has the rough texture of soviet WW2 rolled steel armor plate as seen on their tanks. (russian cast steel is even rugher   )

[StSanta]

If the IL-2 was a LW plane; you'd now be called whiners  .

IL-2 is plenty tough when ya attack it with 1*20mm 109  .

I suspect most expect it to be able to hold its own against fighters. In some pilots hands, it can. But I do believe the K/D ratio in WWII in 109/190's vs IL-2 was heavily tilted in favour of the LW planes.

Having said that, additional armor does not seem to do much in AH - and perhaps it shouldn't. It might have been armor that is effective against light handheld guns, but not the heavier types (the .50 does have a quite amazing hitting power). I doubt however that the .50 can penetrate 10mm of armour; it'll be deflected at all but direct angles on.

[osage]

Originally posted by brady:
BTW to the left of this plane is a P1Y2, do you have a shot of it?

Sorry man.  The camera I borrowed had no flash and I was unable to get a decent exposure on a lot of planes.  A lot of shots were at 1/30 of a second  

--Osage

[ 08-22-2001: Message edited by: osage ]

[Possi]

This is the first Time in a Flysim that all Planes have e correct FM and Ammo!
Mr.Hitech check this Demo out   You do somthing wrong  

[mason22]

where's Oleg when ya need him?

[Staga]

In Il-2 game that plane is really hard to shoot down.
Its easy to get rid of its gunner but frigging plane just keeps on flying...