Ju87D, Ju87G for the Rudel wannabe's soon i hope

[sling322]

 

Originally posted by R4M:
 Because lots of men were sent to jail or sentenced to dead, guilty of the same penalties wich made allied commanders HEROS.

 IF the allied terror bombings were legitim...why was Goering sentenced to death as a criminal agaisnt the humanity because that same reason?....
[This message has been edited by R4M (edited 05-07-2001).]

Big difference here, man.  When you lose the war, you are a war criminal....when you win, you are a hero.  I am sure that if Germany had won there would have been quite a few Allied commanders put on trial or maybe just shot outright for their "war-crimes."

[R4M]

 

Originally posted by sling322:
Big difference here, man.  When you lose the war, you are a war criminal....when you win, you are a hero.  I am sure that if Germany had won there would have been quite a few Allied commanders put on trial or maybe just shot outright for their "war-crimes."

Yep. And the situation would've been the same, but with inversed roles. Harris and LeMay would've been sent to death while Goering would've had been awarded yet another condecoration created for him alone.

 That is the reason I say "vae victis". The winner will always get the glory, deserved or not, and almost always will walk away with his sins ignored or forbidden.

Rest assured, I can understand that attitude in 1946 (and in fact Nuremberg trial was a GREAT good for the world), but not today with the benefit of hindsight.

 And the hypocresy of nuremberg, as I said, is well alive today. And that is what I try to remark.

[Nashwan]

 

I say again, if I am hit by a guy with a baseball bat, and I go to hospital, I can't get out of hospital, get a bat and hit him as vengeance. Because then I will be as guilty as him. Or at least, after I do taht ,what I cant do is to go to trial accusing him of hitting me with a bat, because I have done it.

The allieds did it. They came out from hospital with a BIG fat bat, and they hit back the germans. Ok, lets assume than then terror bombings are legitimate. But then why go to trial?...both side were agressors, both sides were agreded. no matter who hit first, if you hit back you legitimate the first one.

RAM, getting out of hosital and going looking for revenge means the attack is over.
WW2 was not over, the Germans were still attacking, still occupying territory. It is a basic principle in almost every legal system that you have a right to self defence.
If someone hits you with a baseball bat, and you fight back, even if you use a bat yourself, you are not committing a crime. he is a criminal for attacking you, you are just defending yourself.
Both sides were not agressors. Germany invaded Poland, then Denmark, Norway, France, Belguim, Holland etc. Tell me how this makes both sides agressors?

[R4M]

Ok, forget about the hospital.

He gives you a punch in the face and he breaks two teeth (first german terror bombings) Then he kicks you in your guts (battle of britain).But you try to recover and you punch him, way stronger, and you smash four of his teeth (english first night bombing campaigns up to 1942). Then you proceed to pull him and send him to the ground and you repeatedly kick him when he is trying to get up (night terror bombings in 1943-44). and when he is definitely on the ground, blooding and out of the fight, you kick him in the head, just in case (dresden)

Would you still sue him for agression? or would you try to "forget about it"?.  

I know the analogy is not perfect, but more or less illustrates my point.

[This message has been edited by R4M (edited 05-07-2001).]

[214thCavalier]

Actually neither, the wise man would beat the crap outa him making sure to knock all his teeth out. That way he will take a lot longer to recover before he comes looking for you again  

[Nashwan]

RAM, your argument is flawed for 2 reasons.
1 Almost every legal system allows you to use any reasonable force defending yourself, including lethal force if you are faced with a threat. A woman is allowed to shoot or stab a rapist, if that is the only way to stop him. A man is allowed to fight back to the limit of his abilities, if h is attacked. If you believe the person you have just knocked to the ground will gt up and attack again, you are allowed to keep kicking him on the ground until you are sure he can't get up again.
2 To suggest the Allied response was an escalation of the German's is wrong. Who killed more civillians during the war? Germany, by a vast amount. I am not saying because they killed so many they deserved it, but the allied bombings were not an escalation, they were much smaller in scale than Germanies attacks.
The allies bombing attacks were designed to destroy the German economy, and towards the end they succeeded. In doing so they killed around 500,000 Germans, mainly civillians.
The Holocaust was designed to kill anyone who didn't meet German racial standards. It didn't help the German war effort, rather it hindered and cost the Germans a lot in lost production, partisan attacks etc. It resulted in the deaths of over 10,000,000 civillians.
Now tell me how that was a case of the Allies going over the top in their reaction.

[Citabria]

take your flamewar elsewhere you sniveling political hijackers.

this thread is about the ju87 not the politics of the side that flew it.

[Staga]

Some site said later versions of Ju-87D was capable to jettison its landing gears.
Have you seen any more info about that ?

[Staga]

Ju 87D-7
The Ju 87D-5 was not well suited for night operations, this was solved in the Ju 87D-7. It had night-flying instrumentation, flame damper tubes, and as a bonus it was powered by 1 × Junkers Jumo 211P inverted-Vee, rated at 1,500 hp (1.118 kW). Fixed forward armament was increased to 2 × 20 mm MG 151/20 cannons.
In other ways it was identical to the Ju 87D-5 with the larger wing and jettisonable main landing gear, but differed in details such as: empty weight of 8,686 lb (3.940 kg), max take-off weight of 14,561 lb (6.605 kg), max level speed of 249 mph (400 km/h) at 12,795 ft (5.800 m) Normal cruising speed was 186 mph (300 km/h) at 16,700 ft (5.090 m).

Ju87D-8
This version was built in parallel to the Ju 87D-7, but as a daylight version. It lacked the night-time instruments, and the flame damper tubes. The Ju 87D-7 and Ju 87D-8 were the last versions to be produced.
 http://www.ophetweb.nl/ww2w/ww2htmls/junkju87.html

[This message has been edited by Staga (edited 05-07-2001).]

[Wotan]

Rudel is in Valhalla where he belongs  

------------------
 
Im Auftrage der Reichsbahn
(By order of the State Railway)

  Pray not for an end to the slaughter...but for VICTORY!!!

[This message has been edited by Wotan (edited 05-07-2001).]

[Glasses]

 

Originally posted by metronom:
Oh man, here we go again... >sigh<

Hartmann's ability as a Pilot is out of question. But he was a political amazinhunk. Hitler's ability of moustache trimming are unique   But he was a threat to mankind, and he's ideas are still a threat.

Yep Finnland had a hard time with the Russians, but so did Russia with Germans.
 
But the same Hartmann was training his skill on strafing refugees in Poland and Russia - so for me he was a War Criminal. Point.
I said it once, if you wan't to see war go to the refugees camps - they are a few arround the world. Thats war. The rest is Hollywood.

Sailor

Ahem are you by any chance the people of the NKVD who interrogated Hartmann while in prisonin Russia?, and accused him of war crimes in a phony confesion, because you sure sound a lot like them in  Hartmann's biography "The Blond Knight" LOL@U

------------------
Glasses---I may have 4 eyes ,but you only have one wing.
Besser tot als rot

[GRUNHERZ]

Metronom, if you believe that Soviet propaganda roadkill about Hartmann you really are pretty naive.
 
One of the things he was OFFICIALLY charged with by the Soviets was, and no this isnt a joke:

Destroying a wheat processing factory complex and machine-gunning 768 of its workers, all in his 109. Plus they said all this happend somewhere around Leningrad, while Hartmann faught all the war in the Caucuss region some 1000miles to the south..

Again, NO that is NOT a joke....

Thats what kind of bizzare roadkill Communist
Propagandists and kangaroo courts come up with! Dont be fooled by it.

[Fishu]

 

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ:
Destroying a wheat processing factory complex and machine-gunning 768 of its workers, all in his 109. Plus they said all this happend somewhere around Leningrad, while Hartmann faught all the war in the Caucuss region some 1000miles to the south..

He he hee..
Hes been pretty good shot with his 109 that time...
Did he destroy the factory with a cannon and then sniped the people with machineguns?  

funny stories.

[Glunz]

 http://www.rudeliscool.net

AFAIK, Hartmann was charged by Soviets for flying hacked FM, manipulating hit packets and dweeby actions in general.

His aircraft with proper FM could never be a match for Allied planes, at least that is sure. Same goes for Barkhorn, Rall, Kittel, Nowotny, Krupinski. Batz and many other hackers.

[This message has been edited by Glunz (edited 05-08-2001).]

[Staga]

I want those droptanks to 109 ! And ammoload too please !