Ju87D, Ju87G for the Rudel wannabe's soon i hope

[Staga]

I see no point to continue this discussion anymore.

Dowding that one sentence tell's more about yourself than you might notice.

[AG Sachsenberg]

Its a good thing I am not from Christmas Island, wouldn't want to have a label like that    

I am done on this thread, I tried showing a perspective from all sides and it still was construed to be pro nazism.  Dunno guess I will go yell at some canadians because they have funny names for coins.    

[Dowding]

Read the sentence after that, Staga and Fishu. It's in the same paragraph and I'll quote it in its fullness:

   

Maybe it stems from being Finnish and having the dubious honour of belonging to a country that allied itself with the Nazis, but maybe not. I personally don't think Finland had much of a choice - it was sink or swim and they had to accept the first hand offered to them.

How is that not crystal clear, regarding my opinion on the matter?

I apologise unreservedly for any offence caused through misunderstanding, and no, I'm not calling you a Nazi. I was just thinking aloud and trying to reason why someone should make the point that the Nazi's actions are somehow 'over-represented'. To me it is completely irrelevant.

   

Why 99% of the time I see talking of the nazis but aside that it seems that communists or japs werent even bad ones at all? (or few others)

Did you read the start of my last post? In this country the treatment of POWs in the Far East by the Japanese is very nearly as infamous as the name Auschwitz.

Staga - that quote makes some serious claims. In 'most cases' the Geneva Convention was ignored by the Americans and French? Care to tell me where that quote is from? Where are its sources from?

   

Lesson is no one was innocent.

Oh, that's all right then! Why do we bother trying ANYONE for war crimes then?

AG - I misunderstood your post - I thought you were comparing countries, not crimes.

   

ALl crimes consisting of both sides are heinous.

True. But I happen to believe institutionalised murder, rape and torture, pre-conceived at the highest level is far more sinister than the actions of some maverick local commander. The result is the same, but the motivations are not.

   

...but how is raping and torturing an entire population of a country not warranted on the same degree?

To which countries are you refering?




[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 05-10-2001).]

[Staga]

 

I personally don't think Finland had much of a choice - it was sink or swim and they had to accept the first hand offered to them.

Hmm.. First hand?
As far as I know that was the only hand, Only country which were able to send food, ammos, guns, tanks and planes when Finland fought against Russia. Allies had some nice thoughts '40 thought it needs more than good will to fight against red-army invasion forces.

Fact is that without help from Germany there wouldn't be any free Finland after the war but a country just like Eastern Germany with a puppet government.
Btw German "Ostersee Division" helped Finland to keep its new freedom in 1918 when their landing troops went to Hanko (Small city/harbor west of Helsinki) and helped so called "whites" to defeat "Reds": communists who wished Finland should stay as a part of Russia.
So Germany has helped Finland not just once but twice to keep its freedom. As a matter of fact allies sent fighters and bombers to Russia to help its attack to Finland, Nice isn't is? Thank God Germans were there to help us...

And those atrocities done by all countries involved in WW2:
Its childish to think that some country and its soldiers didn't do any of such things. War is hell and when soldiers are scared, tired and full of fear then the "Shit hits the fan".

Another nice quote:
 

In 1942 the Allied bombings of Germany had begun, and by 1943 the Allies were bombing German cities.  The industrial cities on the Rhine were the first to be attacked.  In the last week of July, Hamburg was torn apart by firestorms caused by the bombings, killing 50,000.  By 1944 the allied bombings were directed against Normandy and targets in France, and by the summer of that year the Allies were able to bomb Germany at will.  In Dresden, 135,000 Germans died in a bombing raid, even more than the first impact of Hiroshima.

Military target? I don't think so.

 http://members.iinet.net.au/~gduncan/public_html/massacres.html  http://members.iinet.net.au/~gduncan/public_html/facts.html

Yeah, toejam happened ALL over the world. Better just hope that won't happen ever again.
Every country made atrocities, some more and some less.

So no one was innocent.

[AG Sachsenberg]

Thank you Staga for that info.  Puts a different shade on things sometimes.    

[Shamus]

Ya Cit I think the Stuka would be cool

Shamus

[aircav]

 

Staga: As far as I know that was the only hand....

Fair enough. You obviously weren't aware of the following then:

Winter War:

Aircraft in Finnish combat units:

36 Fokker DXXI - Netherlands - occupied by Germany, 1940
10 Bulldog - Great Britain - at war with Germany, 1939
14 Blenheim - Great Britain

Additional AC received during and after the war:

30 Gloster Gladiator - Great Britain
33 Fiat G50 - Italy
30 Moraine 406 MS - France - at war with Germany, 1939
44 Brewster 239 - USA - at war with Germany, 1941
10 Hawker Hurricane - Great Britain

Source: "Double Fighter Knight" Ilmari Juutilainen

Bearing in mind that most of the above countries were at war themselves at the time, against Germany.

In the Continuation War of 1941, Finland threw in its lot with Germany and advanced to its pre-Winter War borders with the USSR. Apart from the fact that it was now allied with Germany, seaborne supplies to Finland from, say, Britain, might have been hampered by air and submarine attacks from, you guessed it, Germany.

 

Thank God Germans were there to help us...

Indeed

[This message has been edited by aircav (edited 05-10-2001).]

[Pongo]

 

Originally posted by Fishu:
Geez.. if the nazis would be ruling now instead of republicans, conservativs whatever...  we'd be talking of all those crappy democrat and evil commie pilots.

..its just about that who wins and lets all the hype brainwash people to believe that the lost one was just and only pure evil.

Actually if Adolf and company had pulled it off all the people that disaggreed with you in this thread  would be having thier bones broken and thier feet torched right now.

[Staga]

AirCav you can be sure I know every plane FAF did use.
Read your list of planes again and think what    kind of planes they were. You might notice they were already old-fashion,under powered and worst of all there were too few of them.

Do you think GB or USA were capable to send all those little things like P-51s, Spits, Shermans, AA-cannons and boat-loads of food etc if Finland asked them from Allies instead from Germany?
Do you think Soviet Union would stay in its side of border after armistice '40?

Seaborne supplies from GB?
I always thought USA was keeping Britannias head above water with fuel, food and supplies they send.
Are you saying Brits would happily send some of those to Finland, knowing some their planes would then be without fuel and ammo and people starving because some of those ships continued their trip to Finland?
Russians sure would liked that?

So there were quite many holes weren't there AirCav?

Thank god for Germany and its help.

[Sorrow[S=A]]

Ah, no Staga!

You see the TRUTH is that Russia was trying to send you all kinds of military help!

Thousands and thousands of rifles being hand carried across the border, tanks being ferried over etc etc, all to help you fight communism!

But all it takes is one misunderstanding and...

hehe.

[Buzzbait]

S!

This Myth about the Allies starving German prisoners of war is one which has been disproven by a number of serious enquiries, including those led by the German Gov't.

As far as the Germans who enlisted in the French Foreign Legion, many of them were ex-Waffen SS who were looking for a way to change their names and escape from their crimes.  They needed no encouragement.

[straffo]

On the same page we have
THE NORMANDY MASSACRES
LE PARADIS
WORMHOUDT
PARIS DEPORTATIONS
ORADOUR-SUR-GLANE
ASCQ
OUTRAGE AT IZIEU
FRAYSSINET
TULLE MURDERS
SAULX VALLEY ATROCITIES

Have been forgotten the murder of hostage at Nantes/Anger/Saumur/Segré  and lot of other places I can't enumerate here.

 

The standards set by the Geneva Convention were, in most cases, totally ignored by the Americans and French in relation to their treatment of German prisoners-of-war.

Perhaps ... well sure in fact...
 

The French deliberately starved many of their POWs in order to force them to join the French Foreign Legion.

Well I know 2 former german soldier (now french   and quite old) who were member of the 1st REP and they would have say that to me .I cannot figure how they  can be proud to be French if recruted in this condition !
BTW it's just 2 of thousand so it can be true.
 

Thousands of Legionaires who fought in the Viet Nam conflict were Germans handed over by the Americans to the French in 1945/46 to work as slave labourers in the rebuilding of France's war damaged cities.

What's wrong here ?
I suppose that my granduncle who almost died in a Stalag was just an GUEST of hitler ?
 

Conditions in the French camps were just as bad if not worse than in the American camps. It is estimated that at least 167,000 German soldiers died in French captivity between 1945 and 1948.

At this time it was hard also for the french people just to simply find enought FOOD !
And lot of german soldier were used to remove mine/explosives on our coast it's a deadly operation which as not ended yet !

btw this post is not intended to negate the what france as done but more to add a bit of context.

[straffo]

 

As far as the Germans who enlisted in the French Foreign Legion, many of them were ex-Waffen SS who were looking for a way to change their names and escape from their crimes.

If you ever heard of the massacre of Oradour sur Glane some of the Waffen-SS involved in this tragedie were french (from Alsace) and were found in the "légion étrangére".

[-lynx-]

 

Lynx did they teach in history lessons about fights in Suomussalmi and Raattentie (Road of Raate) where over 20000 russian soldiers died (44. and 163.Division of 9th.Army).

No they didn't - the Winter War was not taught in much detail. Maybe it just got overshadowed by what was to follow? Obviously, for Finland that war was of somewhat higher importance. And no-one, especially under the communist rule, was happy to admit to less then glorious however successful in the end campaign. I take it Finnish teacher didn't dig deep into atrocities committed by Finnish troops against Russian civilians, did he? Finns were hated more then Germans you know...

 

Howabout reasons why Russia invaded Finland? (Does Mainila ring a bell?)
Its not always what they teach but what they "forgot" to teach and why.

Nope, Mainila does not ring any bells - mind you I didn't major in history. What I do know is that Stalin needed a buffer zone around Leningrad. He wanted it, troops came and took it regardless of the brave fight the Finns put up trying to defend their country. Had Stalin wanted Finland back under the Soviet rule - they would have marched all the way to Swedish border.

It may hurt your national pride and everything but you stood no better chance to fight off that offensive than Poland vs German army - in fact Polish odds were better.


This topic is so much OT now that it needs to be moved... I'm very much interested in finding out more about Winter War but can we discuss it in the OT?

I find it very peculiar that in 1918 Poland and Finland were given independence by Lenin's government after being part of Russian Empire for yonks. I couldn't find out why Austria is the only country occupied by Soviet troops after the war where communist rule was not "helped" along and the troops simply withdrew leaving Austrians be - the list goes on...

In this topic Cit opened a can of worms. Personally, I think that Rudel unbeknowingly helped Allied cause. He glamourized Stuka - an obsolete, poorly defended plane with abysmal performance and therefore kept better planes from being developed and sent to the frontline units. He glamourised Stuka and young German pilots died in their droves trying to follow his success stories... Stukas were withdrawn from service wherever it was possible due to enormous combat losses and yet the legendary Rudel helped to deliver "lambs" to the slaughter. His personal success notwithstanding his were Pyrrhic victories...

[Fishu]

 

Originally posted by Pongo:

Actually if Adolf and company had pulled it off all the people that disaggreed with you in this thread  would be having thier bones broken and thier feet torched right now.

That was quick, short & simple comparison, not to be meant to read literally and think so.
I do expect that people does have brains to think themself, without needing longer descriptions.

simply: theres always propaganda that tries to lead people to think against or for something.

What comes to german / finn ally, there was one reason why not the british or french didn't ally: french was invaded and brits only route to finland was sea route - which was heavily swarmed up with U-boats and other kind of hostile ships, ready to sink their ships travelling to aid finns.

You'd need a convoy to even get past Denmark.