Author Topic: Evil, evil HO, episode II  (Read 2342 times)

Offline DrDea

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Re: Evil, evil HO, episode II
« Reply #60 on: July 01, 2009, 03:11:37 PM »
I'm not getting something here.

And we train for the opposite. Just last night I spent 2 hours on the short end of 2 v 1 with squad mates. The entire emphasis was upon killing quick using solid teamwork. A good wing pair should get a first pass kill and three passes is my personal grading standard for a functional wing pair. If a 2 v 1 goes past three guns passes there are gross mistakes being made.

Poor SA is a lack of skill or discipline not some noble, chivalric code being upheld by virtual cartoon warriors.
For one,Your training people to go for the face shot while having numbers is not only appalling,it shows a total lack of class on your part. It also show how far the main has fallen.
  NOT taking the initial merge with a face shot does not show lack of SA.It shows  character and  confidence in your skills.
Please do us all a favor and stop training people to be more of the same score hoz we have now.
 The ONLY reason to train people the way it sounds like your doing it to pad the score.NOT learn to fight.
 Jesus.Whats this place turning into? :furious
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Offline moot

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Re: Evil, evil HO, episode II
« Reply #61 on: July 01, 2009, 03:45:02 PM »
I don't understand how you can argue this:
Quote
Having fought in thousands of 1 v 1 fights as a trainer I make it a point of not firing until the opponent is completely out of options when training. When he is out of altitude, airspeed and ideas its time to end his misery. Of course the student is instructed that there are no rules. i never fly a 1 v 1 with rules. Extending a fight in a controlled training situation has some obvious benefits. [...]  I teach that the guns are only to let the opponent know he lost. You have to out fly him first.
But then argue that it contradicts this:
Quote
I get into a fight with a guy or two guys or twelve guys. If my first lead turn results in a tracking guns solution I should not take the shot so that I may extend the fight? What do i do at that point? Make a deliberate mistake so as to give the bandit some hope of turning the tables? [...] I don't see the point in the Main. So I know all about extended fights but its seems rather silly to artificially extend a fight in the Main Arena once you have achieved a solid tracking shot.[...] I get the idea that there is a large group of players who desire the security of the controlled 1 v 1 duel but do not wish to go find it in a controlled arena for a variety of reasons.
It's not about security at all... Those two quotes are apples and oranges.  You remember those duels we had in the DA a while back... How much fun would it have been, in comparison if I'd taken a 109G2 instead of a 152, and just killed you in seconds instead of dozens of seconds or minutes?  Don't you think it was artificial to fly a 152 against a G2? How do you explain having fun as you did in such an artificial setup? Do you think the game would comparatively (if not absolutely) be much fun if anyone in the latter part of the learning curve just dispatched the large majority of the players that're still earlier in the learning curve, at first opportunity?  The rate of noobs getting shot down would be insane.  They'd burn out extra quick.

Quote
Poor SA is a lack of skill or discipline not some noble, chivalric code being upheld by virtual cartoon warriors.
What poor SA?  My SA's fine.  I know exactly what kind of trouble I get into.  I specifically measure it so that only flying at my best will get me out alive and on top.  You're going for an off topic ad hominem when you bring in chivalry and noble what-not.  It's about having fun, nothing more complicated than that.  One of the beauties of a well played fight, as far as the participants are concerned, is the suspense of the outcome.  You can have that suspense with natural as much as artificial setups.  You can have a challenging setup regardless of whether it's natural or artificial... Same with having fun. 

I'm not arguing that "artificial" setups are better than natural ones. Only that there's no negligible skills to learn from playing all over the spectrum.  Everywhere from the "sand bagging" end and the 100% kill mode end.  Nowhere in it do you have to make "gross mistakes".  At no point in any of the "Artificial" fights I've been having do I aim to lose.  I always play to win... Always.  It's just become very shallow to win without any peril.  It's just as challenging to play the other guy's game and beat him on his own terms.  More difficult and rewarding to win with a handicap.  And now we're back to square one:  not only is it more rewarding for me, that way, but the other guy who needs the handicap to compete is also having more fun and actually has time to learn and improve. Compared to being towered with a single ping.  Is he denied the right to see and learn from that single ping move?  Not at all.. He's going to improve (while having more fun) and eventually see those moves when they're what's required to beat him.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2009, 03:49:30 PM by moot »
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Offline moot

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Re: Evil, evil HO, episode II
« Reply #62 on: July 01, 2009, 09:40:11 PM »
Comparing "natural" and "artificial" setups to find which one is more "right" is like comparing characteristic fights in the MA and DA.  Like Chess and Tic-Tac-Toe.  Like comparing the form of asian martial arts' practice/demo patterns VS actual practical fights'.   Or hotlapping around a racetrack VS actual racecraft... and so on.  One is almost completely static, with no unknowns, whereas the other is much more dynamic and depends much more on improvisation.  Both are essential.

You could divide these in three big categories: flying to win (i.e. same as real warfare), flying to have fun, and flying to rule the opponent.  First one is self-explanatory: you leave nothing to chance and make killing the other guy the first priority.  Second is pretty random: whatever floats your boat.  In this one there are no rules, it's all up to taste.
The third one is my idea of truly beating the opponent.  Not just grabbing the first chance of winning, but going out of your way to find every possible attempt the opponent could make, and beating every single one.  Or at least as many as feasible.  In this perspective, the first category is arguably less of a victory and more likely of being a fluke.  There's always an element of luck in fights.  Method #3 forces you to really have all bases covered.  Like going all in to the last challenge in games like "Who wants to be a millionaire?".  You don't just stop at the first right answer and run out with the 20$ bill.

If all the possible scenarios for a given fight were a tree, with the ends of the branches being the fight's end, #3 has you traveling to as many victory branch-ends and then tracking back or bifurcating to the next, until as many of those victories' reqs have been satisfied.  Much like in modern mock dogfights you don't actually fire your guns but just get a lock (or whatever specifically happens).   You paint the other guy dead.  Bang bang. Then move on to the next scenario.  That's how I see this "weird" #3.  It's fun much the same way as playing toreador.   

In fact, IMO, when I purposedly and successfully bait a higher con into committing and then overcoming the E deficit, all the way to a kill after not only satisfying victory rule-set #1, but #3 as well, it's me that's dictated the fight, and that's when I can really say that I won.  Anything less than allowing and defeating every possible attempt, could have been a fluke. 
And even if you ignore all of this.  There's the undeniable fun in actually risking something instead of playing it safe... and this is all just a game! :)  You lose nothing from dying, and IMO lose more from snuffing a fight that could've gone on than you do from dying because you risked playing it unsafe in a fight half as long as the fight you could've had if you hadn't died.

And of course this doesn't exclude those fights where you do have to fly at 100% of what you're capable of.  It's actually, IMO, a very good skill to develop - continually modulating your flying to match exactly 101% of what the other guy is doing.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2009, 09:47:55 PM by moot »
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Offline Qrsu

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Re: Evil, evil HO, episode II
« Reply #63 on: July 01, 2009, 10:16:19 PM »
So any time I survive more than two turns with a superior pilot I haven't actually proven myself capable of fighting them... rather I've just been fortunate that they're extending the fight for fun. Humbling to say the least.  :(

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Offline moot

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Re: Evil, evil HO, episode II
« Reply #64 on: July 01, 2009, 10:24:12 PM »
Or he's not pushing himself, or he's not quite sober, or he's having a bad day....
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Offline NaughtyN

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Re: Evil, evil HO, episode II
« Reply #65 on: July 02, 2009, 02:34:07 AM »
@Qrsu: I think moot is in that regard not representative. To be honest i know very few pilots that will pass a good guns solutions for a perfect one, especially in the MA.

There is nothing wrong in either Moot's and Dawger's approach to fight in the MA. Its a matter of personal taste.

And contrary to DrDea i don't believe Dawger trains "people to go for the face shot". He is instructing people to efficiently work as a team or unit. That has nothing to do with face shots, but with setting up a gun solution for your wingman. Moot made a post concering "Things not to do when expecting help from a friendly" and i guess Dawger trains people not do the stupid things mentioned there.

I like both approaches and which i choose depends on my actual.

Offline Vudak

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Re: Evil, evil HO, episode II
« Reply #66 on: July 02, 2009, 10:12:10 AM »
So any time I survive more than two turns with a superior pilot I haven't actually proven myself capable of fighting them... rather I've just been fortunate that they're extending the fight for fun. Humbling to say the least.  :(



It's not a be-all end-all like that...  If you've gone through two + turns with a better pilot where you know they had a guns solution, they might be extending it.  If you denied them a guns solution, your practice is paying off a little...

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Offline CAP1

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Re: Evil, evil HO, episode II
« Reply #67 on: July 02, 2009, 10:41:09 AM »
@Qrsu: I think moot is in that regard not representative. To be honest i know very few pilots that will pass a good guns solutions for a perfect one, especially in the MA.




if you're refering to passing a good ho shot? i'm not sure....but i know quite a few that will, and do all the time. funny thing, is they ALL fly p38's. always a good fight as i get my arse kicked too.  :aok
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Offline DrDea

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Re: Evil, evil HO, episode II
« Reply #68 on: July 02, 2009, 03:03:22 PM »
 You will never see me take the HO as a first resort.If Im fighting someone that constantly tries for that shot,I'll return the favor.
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Offline Dream Child

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Re: Evil, evil HO, episode II
« Reply #69 on: July 02, 2009, 06:54:42 PM »
that's generally what the ho'er says when you try to avoid them. they claim it wasn't a ho, because you didn't have a shot....and of course you didn't have a shot....you tried to maneuver, and enjoy the fight, that they are obviously afraid of losing.

Pretty much the only time I've gotten irate on open channel. Someone made a big deal of me "HOing" them, even though it wasn't a HO, unless you consider a shot on a overshoot a HO. Then two days later, I end up head to head on the same guy. I roll out, he turns and opens up, takes off enough of my tail that I can't fly, then says it wasn't a HO because there was no danger to him.

Offline RufusLeaking

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Re: Evil, evil HO, episode II
« Reply #70 on: July 02, 2009, 07:55:10 PM »
I know exactly what kind of trouble I get into. 
Pfft.  Moot's trouble is that he runs out of bullets after repeatedly shooting me down.
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