109 g 14 is 20eny while the ki84 is 15??!! Why?

[Sincraft]

There are some things in this game that confuse me beyond all comprehension.

I'm pretty used to flying the ki84.  In the past month or so I would swear they made an adjustment on it, probably just me though.
I feel like I'm firing through things, over shooting or under shooting.  Then I started noticing this on the p51.  Heck I have a video of me shooting point blank in the rear of a spit pilot flying level with a ki, expending EVERY round into him without him even smoking.  Had a similar but not as bad issue with massive packet loss about a year ago.

So today, I was tinkering around with the stats site and noticed a close resemblance to the ki84 perf and the g14, so I decided to give it another shot.

I've tinkered with the germy planes before.  190d...another 190 everyone swears by but for the life of me couldn't figure out why.


THEN I flew the 109 g14 with 20mm gondolas on the wing.

OMFG - everything I squeezed a trigger against - BOOM to the tower. 
I had a spit 16 on me, was able to scissor pretty well, and after the engine got shot out - was able to rtb (about 10 mile radius left after engine damage - maybe longer)
THEN I found out I had a drop tank still on.  Next sorte was even better as far as performance, but didn't really have targets to play with to totally check this out as my cohorts got all the baddies quickly down.  But it felt VERY stable.


It was then suggested I go offline and try out conv on the paper target .target 300 , 400, 1000 etc. 

I like to tap my trigger, I think it helps with lag and whether the game is registering it. 

I have to say I was very surprised to see the WALL of lead the g14 puts out, and how stable the plane is itself from rocking back and forth up and down.

I then proceeded to shoot down every drone.  Exploding them from 400-600 out with just a few quick bursts.   

I was VERY surprised to see that I still had HALF of my ammo left!

So I decided to up the KI84 and try these trials.  In the g14, with the targets at 800 out - the bullets only missed SLIGHTLY lower than intended.  With the KI - it was scattered all over the place and not as much lead (obviously as the g14 has another gun).

what I dont understand is, why the ammo goes out so much quicker on the ki, yet deals SO SO little damage in comparison.  Months ago it seemed pretty potent but then degraded. I figured it was my packet loss.

Offline this prevails so that can not be the case.

Now here's the kicker.  I couldn't get more than two drones to explode with the ki offline, while the g14 could have cleared the room twice over easily. 

So I have to ask - how is it that the ki84 is 15 eny and the 109 g14 is 20eny? 

The forward and forward side vis of the 109 is pretty crappy but hey, I'll take it.  My first kill in the 109 was a hail mary snapshot that sent the guy to the tower quickly.  I would have NEVER have even smoked a guy with a similar attempt in most other planes.

So I guess I'm looking for a discussion of the two planes.  Pros/Cons - eny legitimacy etc

As an old KI pilot, I can tell you one of the cons on the KI is that the pilot gets wounded VERY easily.  The 109 seems (and from what I hear) gets greased pretty easily.

OH I should mention, if I didn't already in my ramblings.  The further I spread out the target on the ki offline, the more sparse the hits.  This didn't seem to affect the 109 even with wing mounted cannons.

It's almost like they forget to make the wing cannons on the 109 g14 act like wing cannons...and also turned them into rockets.    I'm liking it though!

Oh I should mention, I was not using the 30mm package.  I was using the dual wing 20mm single nose 20mm and 12 mm packages.

[moot]

The G14 is less agile, especially with the gondies.  The Ki84 is one of the most agile in the whole game.  Their particular combination of agility x firepower equate to something like 15:20.

[Karnak]

Dunno, I find the guns on the Ki-84 quite deadly.

[moot]

Which supports a lower ENY for the 84..?

[Saxman]

Which supports a lower ENY for the 84..?

Not by itself, but combined with all its other factors the Ki-84 IMO is one of the toughest opponents in the game to deal with.

The biggest problem with the Frank is that she has such a narrow optimal performance band you don't run into many guys that really know how to handle her.

[Anaxogoras]

Not by itself, but combined with all its other factors the Ki-84 IMO is one of the toughest opponents in the game to deal with.

The biggest problem with the Frank is that she has such a narrow optimal performance band you don't run into many guys that really know how to handle her.

No kidding.  It would seem to be the only aircraft in the game that has historical reliability issues built into the AH model: dive past 300mph ias and parts start flying off with no back pressure on the stick.

[JunkyII]

No kidding.  It would seem to be the only aircraft in the game that has historical reliability issues built into the AH model: dive past 300mph ias and parts start flying off with no back pressure on the stick.

funny, i like to get to 360 before i merge someone, i dont think you fly a ki enough bud, its not actually that bad in dives and you can get that speed off rather easy  to avoid an enemy

[JunkyII]

Dunno, I find the guns on the Ki-84 quite deadly.

they are but over 400 out and they start dropping too much

[Sincraft]

Hey dont get me wrong, I loved the ki84 for a long time.  I flew the spit variants when i started and felt uber, till I flew everything else and realized how truly bad I was.

LippyCH turned me onto the ki 84 over 2 years ago, I flew it incorrectly forever as it's a great plane to get started with in furball situations, but found myself quickly outmatched off the deck vs basically everything.

I can usually fly the p51 with some skill, without running for the deck and come out with a couple kills.  The ki used to be the same for me. 

Now it seems I have my conv all screwed up or I'm just not registering my hits.

Something is not 'right' about the registering of how much ammo is expended in this game.  Based on my paper targets and the ammo loadouts vs the two planes in question, there is no doubt in my mind that the ki should have at least half its ammo after a couple good fights.  I'm not a spray and prayer but with the 109 g14 I seemed to be able to do some over under shots while running aircraft are doing the dreaded 'funky chicken' defense.

(which the spit16 is best for!)

I was very surprised when I sent a guy to the tower with just a nano burst from the 109 g14 while the spit 16 tried his funky chicken d.  I don't even bother firing with the ki until I catch him closer and force a snap.

I do like the vis in the ki, and if I fly it a bit like a bnz plane I find I do much better than trying to compete higher up (over 12k) and keep my turns gentle and pick out a precise target, go for it...if I have a shot great if not I abort and extend UP UP UP UP, hammer over and work the next target.

Good at the scissors, good at the verticle manuvers etc.

The 109 is pretty good.  I'm looking forward to learning more about it.  Being that it is a small target too also gives me hope for less surprise deflection shots in a furball. 

I like the level out speed at about 10k too.  Faster than the spit 16 on the charts if I recall.  If that starts to fall then there is the climb on wep - which this thing is not short of by any means!

I would love to learn some of those verticle manuvers people do where it seems their twist back under you and behind you in 3 secs.  I've never mastered the flap.twisty manuvers as I really dont understand what is happen, at what speeds and what distances allow that to be effective.  The 109 seems more stable and throw down a flap ...you can feel safe around 110 kmph

[moot]

The G14 isn't as or more stable than the Ki84.. No contest..  Your impression with the guns' comparative lethality sounds like (is) placebo.

[Saxman]

No kidding.  It would seem to be the only aircraft in the game that has historical reliability issues built into the AH model: dive past 300mph ias and parts start flying off with no back pressure on the stick.

And while she turns very well, you can't really get her too slow, either. There's a very narrow band--I think something like 200-275mph--where the Frank really shines.

[moot]

I dunno about that, the 84's one of the best at flying past the edge and recovering from it, while making something useful of it.

[Bosco123]

I think he was refering to the major lag that AH had one day, I remeber I was in a Temp, and I put 50 rounds into the cockpit of a P51B and he turned about and landed.

Never had a problem with a Ki-84, good guns, just not enough.

[Motherland]

No kidding.  It would seem to be the only aircraft in the game that has historical reliability issues built into the AH model: dive past 300mph ias and parts start flying off with no back pressure on the stick.

You can get the Ki 84 to at least ~450 MpH IAS before you start losing parts.


I don't know what to say, sincraft I usually fly 109's and often times 190's (though I usually fly the 190 like a panzy bellybutton with friends around because that's what's fun to me ). The last time I took up the Ki 84 was to practice before an FSO (with the periods we get in between PTO FSO's, that should tell you something ). It had been a while since I had flown it last (beside maybe a sortie or two in the DA, probably since I flew in the AvA all the time which has been like a year), so I was pretty open to whatever it was going to take me to do, and hopefully a challenging flight, and to be quite honest I was very disappointed; it was like flying a Spitfire; I could pull with most aircraft, it didn't stall easily and had a very docile stall, and it was acceptably fast with good E retention... overall in the feel of the aircraft it was very much Spitfire-like, until you get flaps out.... and then it feels like it can do anything you could possibly want to. The guns, though they may be inaccurate and short range compared to the MG151, are very effective due to there fast rate of fire and will liquidate anything in front of them with a short burst. The 3x 20mm 109 is a very nice gun package but it is also no where near as effective a fighter as the Ki 84.
If I'm looking for a IJAAF fighter I like to grab the Ki 61, the others just feel very 'easy mode' to me.

[JunkyII]

You can get the Ki 84 to at least ~450 MpH IAS before you start losing parts.


I don't know what to say, sincraft I usually fly 109's and often times 190's (though I usually fly the 190 like a panzy bellybutton with friends around because that's what's fun to me ). The last time I took up the Ki 84 was to practice before an FSO (with the periods we get in between PTO FSO's, that should tell you something ). It had been a while since I had flown it last (beside maybe a sortie or two in the DA, probably since I flew in the AvA all the time which has been like a year), so I was pretty open to whatever it was going to take me to do, and hopefully a challenging flight, and to be quite honest I was very disappointed; it was like flying a Spitfire; I could pull with most aircraft, it didn't stall easily and had a very docile stall, and it was acceptably fast with good E retention... overall in the feel of the aircraft it was very much Spitfire-like, until you get flaps out.... and then it feels like it can do anything you could possibly want to. The guns, though they may be inaccurate and short range compared to the MG151, are very effective due to there fast rate of fire and will liquidate anything in front of them with a short burst. The 3x 20mm 109 is a very nice gun package but it is also no where near as effective a fighter as the Ki 84.
If I'm looking for a IJAAF fighter I like to grab the Ki 61, the others just feel very 'easy mode' to me.

only problem i find with the ki is that its almost like a 38 where it doesnt do anything great but does everything well, fights against K4s are hard for the ki because they do have the extra bit of climb in them, and hogs cant turn better and get slower