Mysterious, missing controls surfaces and their drag

[Saurdaukar]

The other flap thread reminded me of this and, to be honest, I don't think Ive ever seen it asked.  Happens to me frequently and Ive discussed it with others who have had the same experience.

Situation: 
-Flaps deployed in a fight. 
-Flap on one side of aircraft is hit and knocked off airframe.
-Flaps retracted.

Result:
-Missing flap continues to produce drag as if present and fully deployed.

Problem:
-Airframe balance is (incorrectly) adversely affected to the point where the aircraft is essentially uncontrollable.

Question:
-Why?

Solution:
-Dont know.

Thoughts from the resident coader?

[Wedge1126]

The graphics don't match the simulation.
Flap damage is modeled as the flap being stuck, but graphically displayed as being ripped off.

I'd rather the flap display as stuck in position rather than missing.

[gyrene81]

Would be interesting to see what the resident programmer says about this one.

Shouldn't it be possible to have both without too much extra scripting? Have it depend on number of hits and/or projectile damage percentage, 1 hit damage and dragging 3 hits blown off...or something like that. The hit boxes look fairly small compare to some other sims.

[moot]

The graphics don't match the simulation.
Flap damage is modeled as the flap being stuck, but graphically displayed as being ripped off.

I'd rather the flap display as stuck in position rather than missing.

And an added damage state where it really does rip off/get shot up to the point of not existing aerodynamically.

Gyrene I'm pretty sure there's no hit boxes. 

[BaldEagl]

This has been discussed and is well known.  The flap is still there stuck in the down position although graphically it got ripped off.

[gyrene81]

Gyrene I'm pretty sure there's no hit boxes. 

No hit boxes? Then how does the system register hits to specific spots? (i.e. wingtip hit produces either bullet hole visual or wingtip falls off) has to be scripted some way other than wing = wing since the program doesn't understand what wing is without some frame of reference.

[SlapShot]

The hit boxes look fairly small compare to some other sims.

There is no "hit box" ... the actual plane itself is the "hit box" ... nothing more ... nothing less.

[Motherland]

The graphics don't match the simulation.
Flap damage is modeled as the flap being stuck, but graphically displayed as being ripped off.

I'd rather the flap display as stuck in position rather than missing.

The newer models (B-25 and later) do.

[SlapShot]

No hit boxes? Then how does the system register hits to specific spots? (i.e. wingtip hit produces either bullet hole visual or wingtip falls off) has to be scripted some way other than wing = wing since the program doesn't understand what wing is without some frame of reference.

I would imagine that the questions you are asking are proprietary. Not sure if HiTech will divulge that info, but I know from past discussions on this subject, that HiTech said there is not a "hit box" surrounding the plane. The actual, depicted plane is the "hit box" ... the granularity of what is registered as hits on the plane and it's parts did increase when AHII was introduced ... to what degree and how it's established, he did not say.

[gyrene81]

There is no "hit box" ... the actual plane itself is the "hit box" ... nothing more ... nothing less.

I would imagine that the questions you are asking are proprietary. Not sure if HiTech will divulge that info, but I know from past discussions on this subject, that HiTech said there is not a "hit box" surrounding the plane. The actual, depicted plane is the "hit box" ... the granularity of what is registered as hits on the plane and it's parts did increase when AHII was introduced ... to what degree and how it's established, he did not say.

I guess I'm stating it wrong then...the plane is a 3d grid frame model where hits are registered in each grid square on the model...instead of a 3d box type grid system surrounding the model...then that could (in theory) make it easy to model the damage/destruction of flaps correctly.

[Wreked]

Let me ask you this - more on a general level but pertaining to this also - is damage incremental and is there any indication of that? - does damage acrue to a "failure" point or is it all or nothing : Ack damage is graphically displayed on my wing BUT does it also indicate a level of damage that is apporaching total losse of it?? So that further high stress movement will result in failure but if you are gentle with it you could nurse it home (this the model in Free Host WB - very interesting to fly).

I'm used to there being hit boxes for individual components of a airframe and as they fill up you loose their capabilities - a rudder you can live with - wings not so much.

interesting stuff

cheers eh!

[SlapShot]

Let me ask you this - more on a general level but pertaining to this also - is damage incremental and is there any indication of that? - does damage acrue to a "failure" point or is it all or nothing : Ack damage is graphically displayed on my wing BUT does it also indicate a level of damage that is apporaching total losse of it?? So that further high stress movement will result in failure but if you are gentle with it you could nurse it home (this the model in Free Host WB - very interesting to fly).

I'm used to there being hit boxes for individual components of a airframe and as they fill up you loose their capabilities - a rudder you can live with - wings not so much.

interesting stuff

cheers eh!

Damage is incremental ... but there isn't any indication (visually) that I know of or have seen.

Examples are when you throw just a few shots out to range a target ... and the wing falls off ... followed by a message on 200 saying that it was impossible for you to do that ... what he doesn't realize that someone else peppered him pretty good and weakened something before you got there.

Another ... just last night I kept peppering a P-51 from 600 out ... when he reached about 800 out, he pulled hard right ... and his wing fell off (I wasn't shooting)... my bullets weakened his wing and when he yanked and put hard Gs on that wing ... pop !!!

From my experience you can lose ...

Wingtips
Ailerons
Wings - half a wing and a full wing
Elevators
Rudder(s)
Empanage

Engine
Engine oil
Fuel leak
Fuel fire
Blood

[Motherland]

Damage is incremental ... but there isn't any indication (visually) that I know of or have seen.

Examples are when you throw just a few shots out to range a target ... and the wing falls off ... followed by a message on 200 saying that it was impossible for you to do that ... what he doesn't realize that someone else peppered him pretty good and weakened something before you got there.

Another ... just last night I kept peppering a P-51 from 600 out ... when he reached about 800 out, he pulled hard right ... and his wing fell off (I wasn't shooting)... my bullets weakened his wing and when he yanked and put hard Gs on that wing ... pop !!!

I think what he means by incremental is that damage effects parts before they actually come off... ex. if you shoot a wing full of holes it loses lift and gains drag etc.
Which, we don't have.

[Ack-Ack]

Result:
-Missing flap continues to produce drag as if present and fully deployed.

It's stuck at the position that it was destroyed at and behaves that way.  For example, I lost the right flap on my P-38 after deploying it 2 notches.  The plane flies like I have the flaps deployed 2 notches and if I keep it at that, I can fly around normally but if I raise my flaps or lower them then the plane gets out of whack.  Raise/lower my good flap so its back to two notches and the plane flies okay.

My question is, what would happen in a real plane if this happened?  How would a real plane behave if one flap was destroyed and you deploy/retract the remaining working flap?


ack-ack

[FiLtH]

  I just pretend its mangled metal on the wing causing drag.