Author Topic: Neophyte Ship Captains Beware  (Read 1765 times)

Offline BaldEagl

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Neophyte Ship Captains Beware
« on: July 18, 2009, 11:24:31 AM »
I logged into LW Blue yesterday afternoon and saw a base flashing on the coastline relatively deep in our territory.  I went to the tower and (tip: works in any tower including CV's) hit F3 then F8 to jump into external view and used my arrow keys to look around to get a good grip on what was happening. 

There was one low F4U straffing the town which was almost down so I jumped in an M-16 and beat feet (tip: when time counts take something fast) into town in case there were LVT's inbound.  There weren't and I killed the F4U.

Since I was all alone I called out on country channel that the field's town was almost down and a CV was near (tip: after killing the F4U the base kept flashing... this is an indication the an enemy CV is very nearby).  Another friendly arrived at the town just as the F4U came back.  He managed to kill both of us.

In the meantime the CV had killed the vehicle hanger, so I upped from another field in a Wirblewind and spawned in.  Now I could see the CV.  It was just offshore from the town in a line with the airfield, the town then the CV.  I hadn't seen it the first time as the town was in the way.

Knowing that there hadn't been an LVT on shore yet I headed to the beach to cut them off.  A few friendly planes were starting to up by this point and the enemy were also upping in greater numbers.  I arrived at the beach with no LVT's but plenty of aircraft to shoot at.  Soon after the other friendly who had been in town with me also showed up on the beach in a Wirble.

Here's where we start with the CV admiral tips.

The CV was in so close that the enemy aircraft had no chance to gain altitude on the way into town.  Positioned on the beach between the CV and the town it was like shooting fish in a barrel as I landed 10 kills in my Wirble.  (tip: don't bring the CV in so close that your friendly aircraft don't have a chance to get altitude, particularily if you intend them to try bombing something).

With that sortie ended and the air battle heating up I tried to jump in a shore battery but there were none at this base so, seeing that the V hanger was back up and with a plan in mind I grabbed a Tiger and headed back to the town.  I got there in time to kill an LVT that was sitting near the town, then someone said troops were running.  I desperately climbed one of the hills that buildings used to stand on heading toward the maproom.  I could see the troops intermittantly through the buildings and drove from my pintle (tip: use your rudders to steer from your pintle or hull guns) firing in their general direction even though I couldn't see them (tip: you can fire through downed buildings).  Two other GV's arrived and between us we killed enough of the troops to avoid the capture.  I immediately turned toward the beach, my original plan only slightly sidelined.

Now back on the beach between the town and the CV I elevated my gun and began to fire at the CV.  Short... short... short... long... hit!  Hit!  The CV started to turn.  Hit!  Long...  to my surprise the CV turned toward the beach then crossed right to left in front of me at 2800 yards.  I kep pummeling it with my armor piercing shells hearing an occasional zing from 5" fire coming my direction (tip: neither the ack rounds nor the HE rounds on a 5" will kill a Tiger).  Finally the CV went stern up.  I had killed it with a Tiger.

So, at this point I'd guess you can already imagine what my advice to the Admiral of this CV is:

1.  Keep the CV a safe distance off shore.  There are several reasons for this:
    a.  Allow your friendly planes a chance to get altitude.  The enemy will be forced to stay low to avoid the ack guns and it gives your countrymen the advantage.  They also need alt to bomb effectively.
    b.  You won't lose your CV to tank fire.
    c.  You won't set off enemy radar before you even get a plane in the air.
2.  Even though it didn't happen here keep the CV out of shore battery range.  The Cruiser's 8" guns will easily fire 25 miles.
3.  Keep your map open and avoid PT spawns.
4.  If you are under fire turn AWAY from the fire at an angle, possibly even zig-zagging until you're no longer in danger.

Oh... and I got another kill on a PT after hte CV went down.   :)
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Offline RTHolmes

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Re: Neophyte Ship Captains Beware
« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2009, 12:57:15 PM »
:aok

I'll add - you dont need to be 500yd offshore to launch LVTs, they launch fine from just inside the radar ring. not even sure if its a longer paddle, if it is its not by much.
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Offline wrongwayric

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Re: Neophyte Ship Captains Beware
« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2009, 10:14:48 PM »
Had i been in the 8 inchers on the cruiser you'd have been a spanked kitty. You got lucky due to lack of concentrated trained gunners on the ship IMO.

I will agree most ship commanders don't pay enough attention to driving the boat as they should. :frown: Why worry about getting something killed if there's no penalty to you personally for it. Until they make it cost a player personally to command a cv you'll never see them used in the manner they should be in the game. :cry

Offline Vudak

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Re: Neophyte Ship Captains Beware
« Reply #3 on: July 18, 2009, 11:06:45 PM »
Had i been in the 8 inchers on the cruiser you'd have been a spanked kitty. You got lucky due to lack of concentrated trained gunners on the ship IMO.

I will agree most ship commanders don't pay enough attention to driving the boat as they should. :frown: Why worry about getting something killed if there's no penalty to you personally for it. Until they make it cost a player personally to command a cv you'll never see them used in the manner they should be in the game. :cry

Having a hefty perk price for the CV would make the game more interesting...  Maybe let any perk category count towards it?
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Offline morfiend

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Re: Neophyte Ship Captains Beware
« Reply #4 on: July 21, 2009, 01:09:33 PM »
It would be nice if it cost a set amount of perks to take comand of the CV instead of the rank system now in place.

 Maybe 5 perks from each category and if someone has comand to bad for them if another player has to take comand to move the Fleet because of poor planing said player loses comand and perks!

Offline Shuffler

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Re: Neophyte Ship Captains Beware
« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2009, 03:07:42 PM »
It would be nice if it cost a set amount of perks to take comand of the CV instead of the rank system now in place.

 Maybe 5 perks from each category and if someone has comand to bad for them if another player has to take comand to move the Fleet because of poor planing said player loses comand and perks!

They could bid higher.  :D

I have well over 20k fighter perks alone.... can I be an admiral?
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Offline Black Jack

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Re: Neophyte Ship Captains Beware
« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2009, 08:39:30 AM »
Correct me if i'm wrong but the cv can be as close as u can from the beach and the base will not flash. You need something to spawn from it to start the flashing of the base. Lvt's in the water or a plane on the deck. That is a tip to use as well because you can put this town down completely with your 8" and launch at the last minute with troops and planes to finish it off or to confirm it's all down. Otherwise if the base flashes somebody will come looking just like Baldeagle just did in this case and make it a lot harder to take the base or impossible at all. It takes a long time for a cv to be in good position to help take a base and it takes just one guy to make this base flash too soon and blow up the whole operation.   :aok

Offline LYNX

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Re: Neophyte Ship Captains Beware
« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2009, 12:43:23 AM »
Correct me if i'm wrong but the cv can be as close as u can from the beach and the base will not flash. You need something to spawn from it to start the flashing of the base. Lvt's in the water or a plane on the deck. That is a tip to use as well because you can put this town down completely with your 8" and launch at the last minute with troops and planes to finish it off or to confirm it's all down. Otherwise if the base flashes somebody will come looking just like Baldeagle just did in this case and make it a lot harder to take the base or impossible at all. It takes a long time for a cv to be in good position to help take a base and it takes just one guy to make this base flash too soon and blow up the whole operation.   :aok


You are correct.  Cv's and Cv manned guns do NOT make bases flash.  Only those that leave the confines of the Cv make bases flash.

On a side note LVT's can be launched from 8.8 miles or 1 key pad of the map room (yellow square on map).

Offline badhorse

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Re: Neophyte Ship Captains Beware
« Reply #8 on: August 10, 2009, 12:29:57 PM »
While I don't disagree with what BaldEgl is saying, there is an argument for bringing the CV in closer than the range of the 8" guns.  It can be an advantage to having the fleet ack cover the base you are attacking. (assuming you are planning on base capture and not just furballing). If the defenders get above 3,000 feet the ack will fire at them.  Taking the shore battery and VH out first is a given though; and yes, watch those pesky PT spawns.
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Offline Widewing

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Re: Neophyte Ship Captains Beware
« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2009, 06:59:42 PM »
Some years ago I wrote a piece for Netaces on CV management... It's still relevant.


Every map will provide each country with at least one carrier Task Group (TG). Larger maps usually have four or more Task Groups per country. The obvious use for these Task Groups is that they are self-contained, mobile airfields. Unlike land bases, the troop supply cannot be eliminated until the carrier is sunk and the Task Group re-spawns near its original port. Regardless of how few ships, if any remain, LVTs, PT boats, supplies and troops will remain available until the TG re-spawns. This is important to remember because a base can still be captured even though no ships of the Task Group remain afloat, and any vehicles and PT boats spawned prior to the TG re-spawning can still carryout their purpose after the TG is gone.

Any player can command a Task Group. However, control of a TG is determined by ranking in the game itself. Therefore, if you have a ranking of 850, anyone with a better (lower) ranking can take control of the TG. It is generally viewed as bad form to take command of a TG if it is involved in actual action. There are exceptions to this. If the TG is being mismanaged, or if a clear danger is present and the current commander is no responding to warnings or perhaps, not even operating with the TG, taking command is not only acceptable, but necessary.

New players lacking experience with Task Force operations should expect that command can be taken away at any time. Gaining experience is important. Unfortunately, like any other aspect of the game, mistakes will be made. Often, the more experienced players will oversee the Task Group, and not usually interfere with anything beyond advice, unless an emergency should arise where instant action is required, such as a formation of bombers closing in and the TG commander does not respond to warnings that a hard turn is required because he is busy or lost vox, or for whatever reason, does not get the message. There are always exceptions as there will always be players who will not show consideration and move the TG on a whim. Try not to get frustrated when this happens. You can often ask a low ranking player to take command and direct the TG as you may need.

Despite having a low rank and even years of experience playing the game, many players still demonstrate a lack of understanding of how to effectively utilize a Task Group. This requires a solid understanding of tactics and the strategy associated with Task Group operations. I will present this in detail.
Basic rules for effectively commanding a TG:

1. Shore batteries can be as devastating as air attack on a TG. A primary goal is to remain out of the field of fire of the batteries, or at least at a distance that makes accurate gunfire unlikely. Destroying the batteries should be a priority of the Task Group commander. Always maintain an adequate distance buffer between the TG and the enemy base under attack. I like to keep the TG about 20k out to minimize the effectiveness of shore batteries, and provide time for defending aircraft to intercept enemy aircraft destined for the TG. Once the shore batteries are disabled, and the field effectively closed, the TG can be brought closer to reduce flight time. However, it is not necessary to get exceptionally close to spawn LVTs. At 15,000 yards, they spawn at the same position as they would if the TG were just 5,000 yards out. Should the enemy base recover, having the TG too close can get it sunk. So, keep it as distant as practical, remembering that these fights can be very fluid and the TG commander needs to be flexible to the needs of the attack and the pilots that are flying from the carrier.

2. Keeping the TG (especially the carrier) alive and operational is the foremost goal of the TG commander. There are certainly circumstances that the commander cannot control or avoid, such as mass suicide attacks. All he can do is make sure that as many of the 5” gun positions are manned as is possible. Turning the TG to avoid dive bombing fighters is useless. So don’t bother, because it prevents takeoffs and landings, while making defensive gunnery difficult.

Being attacked by level bombers is another issue, here turning the TG is essential to upsetting their bomb run. Likewise, the TG commander is responsible for providing those pilots who fly from the carrier with a place they can rearm, refuel and retreat to should that be necessary. They are depending upon the TG commander not to make errors that leave them high and dry. On the other hand, the pilots need to realize that they have a responsibility to defend and protect the TG as well.

3. Use the map and radar effectively. Know where potential threats are at all times. Know where enemy reinforcements are likely to come from, and pay attention to the sea side, watching for low level air attacks or the appearance of an enemy TG. Make note of enemy PT spawn points and avoid them.

4. Effective use of 8 inch guns against distant land targets: There is a game feature that will allow you to fire 8 inch guns at land targets with reasonable accuracy from well beyond visual range. Using the Esc key, bring up the map on the clip board. Using the cursor, drag the map until the target base is centered on the map. Using the Z and [ ] keys, zoom in on the base. Place to cursor point on where you want the shells to fall. Press the W key. The turret will rotate and elevate the guns to a position to drop shells on the target point. Fire the guns. You can select a new target point at any time. This is highly effective for destroying towns, cities and factories. It is less effective against airfields, and virtually useless against enemy ships.

5. When encountering an enemy TG, call for gunners immediately. TG commanders should become proficient with the Cruiser’s 8” guns. In these fights, marksmanship is often the deciding factor.

    * Concentrate on sinking the enemy Cruiser first, as this ship presents the greatest threat. On some maps, a TG may contain two Cruisers.
    * Once the enemy Cruisers and CV are sunk turn your TG away from the enemy Destroyers to avoid the mob of PTs that will inevitably spawn. These PTs can then be picked off at leisure by the 5” gun batteries or fighters.
    * Always position your TG so that the maximum number of guns can be brought to bear on the enemy TG. Strive to steam your TG across the bow of the enemy in the classic “crossing the T” manner. This minimizes the number of enemy guns, while maximizing your own.
          o When the range drops below 17k try to have the port (left) side of your TG towards the enemy. This allows all of the carrier’s guns to be brought into play.
          o Gunners in 5” gun mounts must divert fire from the enemy ships to attacking aircraft whenever they come within range. The primary ship killers are the 8” guns.
    * Don’t berate your gunners if they prove to have poor marksmanship. This also has a learning curve. Eventually, they will develop the required accuracy. Give them an opportunity to do so.
    * Maintain a constant dialog running with gunners, sharing range information so that all guns can be effective. Encourage pilots to call shot fall, and listen to them when they recommend range corrections. Watch the text buffer. Do not develop “tunnel vision”; be aware of your environment.

6. Whenever possible, do not take a TG more than one or two sectors from the nearest friendly airfield for a strike mission. TGs often require air cover beyond what they can provide themselves.

7. As the TG commander, you need to be with the TG at all times. It is best that you do not fly combat sorties, but remain with the ships. However, you can fly as part of the Combat Air Patrol (CAP) that should be defending the TG from air attack. I recommend flying an SBD, TBM or D3a, circling the TG, flying in F3 mode. From here you can track the enemy attacks, observe torpedo threats and, when necessary, intercept low flying bombers and fighters. Just beware that friendly AI AA may shoot you down should you follow enemy aircraft into the defensive AA umbrella. Friendly manned AA cannot hurt your aircraft.

8. Do not allow friendly PTs to get between your guns and low flying enemy aircraft. Those PTs will detonate the proximity fuses, effectively preventing the guns from killing the enemy. Ask PTs drivers to move clear of the TG. Be polite, but if they don’t move, do whatever is required to get them moving on their way. Whether or not they realize it, they can put the TG in jeopardy. Explain why you need them to move away from the TG. Most will understand if it is explained to them.

9. Avoid taking the TG on long cross-water excursions. This effectively takes the TG out of the battle for many hours (a typical example would be using the TG to strike at A21 on the Mindanao map. Use an under-radar mission for this mission.

10. Do not annoy friendly players by firing the 5 inch guns at their aircraft or PT. They do not need the distraction.

11. Avoid flying alone or in small numbers from a TG that is closing on an enemy base and is still undetected. You will create a radar bar in that sector, which is a clear sign to the enemy that a TG is that sector, and where in the sector it can be found. Try to organize a mission from that TG to make the effort worthwhile.



My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Yarbles

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Re: Neophyte Ship Captains Beware
« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2009, 06:15:28 AM »
Taking the shore battery and VH out first is a given though; and yes, watch those pesky PT spawns.

And maybe above all Ords should be out.

How many times have we seen a cv in close and ords are still up :uhoh :)
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Offline Hawk55

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Re: Neophyte Ship Captains Beware
« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2009, 10:00:48 AM »
What a great, informative post Widewing!  Thanks Sir.   :salute
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Offline Hap

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Re: Neophyte Ship Captains Beware
« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2009, 10:22:39 AM »
Some years ago I wrote a piece for Netaces on CV management... It's still relevant.


Every map will provide each country with at least one carrier Task Group (TG). Larger maps usually have four or more Task Groups per country. The obvious use for these Task Groups is that they are self-contained, mobile airfields. Unlike land bases, the troop supply cannot be eliminated until the carrier is sunk and the Task Group re-spawns near its original port. Regardless of how few ships, if any remain, LVTs, PT boats, supplies and troops will remain available until the TG re-spawns. This is important to remember because a base can still be captured even though no ships of the Task Group remain afloat, and any vehicles and PT boats spawned prior to the TG re-spawning can still carryout their purpose after the TG is gone.

Any player can command a Task Group. However, control of a TG is determined by ranking in the game itself. Therefore, if you have a ranking of 850, anyone with a better (lower) ranking can take control of the TG. It is generally viewed as bad form to take command of a TG if it is involved in actual action. There are exceptions to this. If the TG is being mismanaged, or if a clear danger is present and the current commander is no responding to warnings or perhaps, not even operating with the TG, taking command is not only acceptable, but necessary.

New players lacking experience with Task Force operations should expect that command can be taken away at any time. Gaining experience is important. Unfortunately, like any other aspect of the game, mistakes will be made. Often, the more experienced players will oversee the Task Group, and not usually interfere with anything beyond advice, unless an emergency should arise where instant action is required, such as a formation of bombers closing in and the TG commander does not respond to warnings that a hard turn is required because he is busy or lost vox, or for whatever reason, does not get the message. There are always exceptions as there will always be players who will not show consideration and move the TG on a whim. Try not to get frustrated when this happens. You can often ask a low ranking player to take command and direct the TG as you may need.

Despite having a low rank and even years of experience playing the game, many players still demonstrate a lack of understanding of how to effectively utilize a Task Group. This requires a solid understanding of tactics and the strategy associated with Task Group operations. I will present this in detail.
Basic rules for effectively commanding a TG:

1. Shore batteries can be as devastating as air attack on a TG. A primary goal is to remain out of the field of fire of the batteries, or at least at a distance that makes accurate gunfire unlikely. Destroying the batteries should be a priority of the Task Group commander. Always maintain an adequate distance buffer between the TG and the enemy base under attack. I like to keep the TG about 20k out to minimize the effectiveness of shore batteries, and provide time for defending aircraft to intercept enemy aircraft destined for the TG. Once the shore batteries are disabled, and the field effectively closed, the TG can be brought closer to reduce flight time. However, it is not necessary to get exceptionally close to spawn LVTs. At 15,000 yards, they spawn at the same position as they would if the TG were just 5,000 yards out. Should the enemy base recover, having the TG too close can get it sunk. So, keep it as distant as practical, remembering that these fights can be very fluid and the TG commander needs to be flexible to the needs of the attack and the pilots that are flying from the carrier.

2. Keeping the TG (especially the carrier) alive and operational is the foremost goal of the TG commander. There are certainly circumstances that the commander cannot control or avoid, such as mass suicide attacks. All he can do is make sure that as many of the 5” gun positions are manned as is possible. Turning the TG to avoid dive bombing fighters is useless. So don’t bother, because it prevents takeoffs and landings, while making defensive gunnery difficult.

Being attacked by level bombers is another issue, here turning the TG is essential to upsetting their bomb run. Likewise, the TG commander is responsible for providing those pilots who fly from the carrier with a place they can rearm, refuel and retreat to should that be necessary. They are depending upon the TG commander not to make errors that leave them high and dry. On the other hand, the pilots need to realize that they have a responsibility to defend and protect the TG as well.

3. Use the map and radar effectively. Know where potential threats are at all times. Know where enemy reinforcements are likely to come from, and pay attention to the sea side, watching for low level air attacks or the appearance of an enemy TG. Make note of enemy PT spawn points and avoid them.

4. Effective use of 8 inch guns against distant land targets: There is a game feature that will allow you to fire 8 inch guns at land targets with reasonable accuracy from well beyond visual range. Using the Esc key, bring up the map on the clip board. Using the cursor, drag the map until the target base is centered on the map. Using the Z and [ ] keys, zoom in on the base. Place to cursor point on where you want the shells to fall. Press the W key. The turret will rotate and elevate the guns to a position to drop shells on the target point. Fire the guns. You can select a new target point at any time. This is highly effective for destroying towns, cities and factories. It is less effective against airfields, and virtually useless against enemy ships.

5. When encountering an enemy TG, call for gunners immediately. TG commanders should become proficient with the Cruiser’s 8” guns. In these fights, marksmanship is often the deciding factor.

    * Concentrate on sinking the enemy Cruiser first, as this ship presents the greatest threat. On some maps, a TG may contain two Cruisers.
    * Once the enemy Cruisers and CV are sunk turn your TG away from the enemy Destroyers to avoid the mob of PTs that will inevitably spawn. These PTs can then be picked off at leisure by the 5” gun batteries or fighters.
    * Always position your TG so that the maximum number of guns can be brought to bear on the enemy TG. Strive to steam your TG across the bow of the enemy in the classic “crossing the T” manner. This minimizes the number of enemy guns, while maximizing your own.
          o When the range drops below 17k try to have the port (left) side of your TG towards the enemy. This allows all of the carrier’s guns to be brought into play.
          o Gunners in 5” gun mounts must divert fire from the enemy ships to attacking aircraft whenever they come within range. The primary ship killers are the 8” guns.
    * Don’t berate your gunners if they prove to have poor marksmanship. This also has a learning curve. Eventually, they will develop the required accuracy. Give them an opportunity to do so.
    * Maintain a constant dialog running with gunners, sharing range information so that all guns can be effective. Encourage pilots to call shot fall, and listen to them when they recommend range corrections. Watch the text buffer. Do not develop “tunnel vision”; be aware of your environment.

6. Whenever possible, do not take a TG more than one or two sectors from the nearest friendly airfield for a strike mission. TGs often require air cover beyond what they can provide themselves.

7. As the TG commander, you need to be with the TG at all times. It is best that you do not fly combat sorties, but remain with the ships. However, you can fly as part of the Combat Air Patrol (CAP) that should be defending the TG from air attack. I recommend flying an SBD, TBM or D3a, circling the TG, flying in F3 mode. From here you can track the enemy attacks, observe torpedo threats and, when necessary, intercept low flying bombers and fighters. Just beware that friendly AI AA may shoot you down should you follow enemy aircraft into the defensive AA umbrella. Friendly manned AA cannot hurt your aircraft.

8. Do not allow friendly PTs to get between your guns and low flying enemy aircraft. Those PTs will detonate the proximity fuses, effectively preventing the guns from killing the enemy. Ask PTs drivers to move clear of the TG. Be polite, but if they don’t move, do whatever is required to get them moving on their way. Whether or not they realize it, they can put the TG in jeopardy. Explain why you need them to move away from the TG. Most will understand if it is explained to them.

9. Avoid taking the TG on long cross-water excursions. This effectively takes the TG out of the battle for many hours (a typical example would be using the TG to strike at A21 on the Mindanao map. Use an under-radar mission for this mission.

10. Do not annoy friendly players by firing the 5 inch guns at their aircraft or PT. They do not need the distraction.

11. Avoid flying alone or in small numbers from a TG that is closing on an enemy base and is still undetected. You will create a radar bar in that sector, which is a clear sign to the enemy that a TG is that sector, and where in the sector it can be found. Try to organize a mission from that TG to make the effort worthwhile.



My regards,

Widewing

WW's essay on CV ops is pure gold!