Author Topic: Commentary by a P-40 ACE  (Read 1658 times)

fire_ant

  • Guest
Commentary by a P-40 ACE
« on: July 27, 2000, 01:44:00 PM »
As part of my ongoing efforts to disprove the P40's reputation as a crappy plane, I found this testimony from one of the few USAAF P-40 aces....

Robert M. DeHaven
Robert Marshall DeHaven was born on 13 January 1922 in San Diego, California. He attended Washington and Lee University but left to join the Army Air Corps in February 1942. Earning his pilot's wings, he was assigned to P-40 training in Florida. In February 1943 he was sent to Hawaii, then on to Port Moresby, New Guinea via Australia in May. He was assigned to the P-40 equipped 7th Fighter Squadron, 49th Fighter Group at Dobodura.
Lieutenant DeHaven scored his first victory on 14 July 1943 and became an ace on 10 December. He participated in the offensives which took Buna, Lae, Markham Valley, Hollandia and Biak Islands. During these battles, he downed a total of ten enemy aircraft with the P-40, one of the highest P-40 scores for USAAF pilots, other than AVG pilots.
DeHaven liked the P-40, surprisingly, even preferring it to the highly acclaimed P-38. In Eric Bergerud's Fire in the Sky: The Air War in the South Pacific, DeHaven explains:
After training I requested duty in the Pacific and I requested being posted to a P-40 squadron and both wishes were granted. This was early in 1943 and most pilots already desired more advanced types and some thought my decision a mistake. Yet I had been inspired by the deeds of the Flying Tigers. We had also heard accounts that the P-38 was difficult to bail out of because of its twin-boom tail and that it was difficult when flying with one engine. I also knew that P-38s were still rare in the theater and I wanted to get into the war as soon as possible. That wish, too, was granted. I never regretted the choice.
If you flew wisely, the P-40 was a very capable aircraft. In many conditions, it could outturn a P-38, a fact that some pilots didn't realize when they made the transition between the two aircraft. The P-40 kept me alive and allowed me to accomplish my mission. The real problem with it was lack of range. As we pushed the Japanese back, P-40 pilots were slowly left out of the war. So when I moved to P-38s, an excellent aircraft, I did so not because I believed that the P-40 was an inferior fighter, but because I knew the P-38 would allow us to reach the enemy. I was a fighter pilot and that was what I was supposed to do.
The 7th Fighter Squadron transitioned to P-38s in July-September 1944 for the Philippine invasion. On 27 October, leading the 7th Squadron, DeHaven became one of the first AAF fighters to "return" to the Philippines. Within seven days he acquired four more victories. After leave in the U.S. he rejoined the 49th at Lingayen as group operations officer, serving into the occupation of Japan.
Following World War II, DeHaven joined the Hughes Aircraft Company as an engineering test pilot and personal pilot to Howard Hughes. Eventually he became an executive of the firm and manager of the Flight Test Division for over 30 years. He was also elected a Fellow in the Society of Experimental Test Pilots and served as President of the American Fighter Aces Association.
TALLY RECORD: 14 Confirmed and one Damaged
DECORATIONS: Silver Star with one Oak Leaf Cluster, Distinguished Flying Cross with 2 OLCs, Air Medal with 13 OLCs, and the Presidential Unit Citation with one OLC.
Sources:
·   DeHaven article at 475th FG website - listed under "Friends of the 475th"

Offline Kieren

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3
Commentary by a P-40 ACE
« Reply #1 on: July 27, 2000, 03:03:00 PM »
Give me a P-38, you take the P-40.

We meet at 10K. Assuming you don't hit anything when we pass, I do a low-G pullup and do a lazy loop over your head. You are dead no matter what you do now.

I don't discount the P-40's ability to turn, its toughness, or even its 6x.50's. Its climb and poor altitude performance is what damns it. Co-alt a good pilot in a good plane should finish it IMHO.

Not trying to pee in your Wheaties, and I would love to see and fly a P-40, but it was an obsolescent aircraft in 1941. It is no match whatsoever for anything we have in the game, not even the 202. The only possible P-40 worth modeling as a fighter would be the P-40N.
 

Offline Fishu

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3789
Commentary by a P-40 ACE
« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2000, 03:36:00 PM »
I flew exclusively P-40 in WarBirds as first thing when it got into WB  
I liked it, was very stable control and good dive, K/D way more than 1:1

Offline RAM

  • Parolee
  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 38
Commentary by a P-40 ACE
« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2000, 03:38:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Kieren:
Not trying to pee in your Wheaties, and I would love to see and fly a P-40, but it was an obsolescent aircraft in 1941. It is no match whatsoever for anything we have in the game, not even the 202.

LOL kieren...there is people (finnish people  ) crying for a Brewster Buffalo and you say P40 was obsolescent?

 

 

   

fire_ant

  • Guest
Commentary by a P-40 ACE
« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2000, 04:12:00 PM »
I'm not trying to say a P40 is better than a P38.  You are arguing with the ace i quoted, no doubt you know more than he did, he only had 11 kills in real life while you probably have hundreds of virtuals.  

All I'm saying it was better than it's overall bad rep deserved.  (By the way, I would love to see the P40 N modled here, it was lighter and up engined, should be great)
I'd like to try your bet though in warbirds, anytime.  Email me.  I flew P40's in Air Warrior where their model is far far inferior to the model on Warbirds and I shot down P38's (which have a very exxageratd model in AW) pretty regularly.  Anyway i don't think the outcome is so certain.  You might follow me down and end up losing some E in some twisting and turning.  At high Speed the P40 handles better than just about anything.

Even in Warbrirds I think the P40B is probably superior to the Hurri, the F4F, the Ki43, the P39, the 109E, the 110, and probably one or two others I forgot to mention.  

As for the P40 being 'obsolete' in 1941, I don't agree with this.  If you look at the battle performance of P40 squadrons in the med, china, and the pacific, experienced squadrons generally gave better than they got.  Many pilots ran up quite a few kills against such allegedly superior aircraft as 109E, 109F, Me 110, Ki 43, Ki 61, and A6M.  The P40 did have some poor tactical performance characteristics which some of it's pilots and many Army air Corps strategists complained about (mainly climb rate) but it had advantages too and the fact is it was quite a good dogfighter overall.  

The P40 and the P39 especially, were vilified as obsolete fighters, and yet they largely held he fort for many years, and
statisitcal evidence on paper indicates they were probably not truly obsolete all all.  

The P39 in particular was nothing short of spactacular in Russian hands (a fact only grudginly admitted by most western experts)

It's real drawback, and that of the P40 is that they had two major strategic problems, a lack of high altitutde performance which made it difficult to intercept high altitude medium bombers particularly in the pacific, and a lack of long range (due to only being able to fit one external fuel tank instead of two) which was also a major problem especially in the pacific.

These can be crippling issues when you are trying to conduct say a battle in the solomon islands, but may not be as relevant in an online arena with different circumstances.

Due to these two issues the P39 (which was legitimately unpopulr with US pilots) and the P40 began to be called obsolete fighters by the 'experts'.  On the other hand, in theaters such as the russian front and particularly the mediterranain where there was often a low cloud ceiling and where tactical bombing took precidence over strategic, many accounts I have read indicated that early P40 models in particular were considered by the RAF to be "superior" to the Me 109 below 5,000 feet. I have another book which stated that many pilots in the USAAF in the China theatre prefered the p40 to the p51 for the type of operations they usually flew there.

If you look objectively at the P39, late models had a top speed of 380 mph at low altitude (5,000 ft), and an initial climb rate of close to 4,000 ft per minute, making it an obvious killer in the low cloud ceiling environment of the Russian front.  
This is why they did so well there.

The Hurricane used to get similar bad press for some time, until it was realised that they carried most of the actual load during the battle of Britain.  Now it's rep has been largely rescued.

I think many experts are too lazy and too eager to repeat what they heard before.  When the history about the p40 and P39 (both hands down better fighters than the Hurri) are more carefully examined, people wont be so surprised to see that their flight models look relatively good in simulators like Warbirds.

And if this (or some other) game takes the path of modeling some of the more interesting mid and early war planes instead of only "uber" planes from 1944, you might find it holds up quite well.

Offline Kieren

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3
Commentary by a P-40 ACE
« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2000, 04:56:00 PM »
There is a difference in meaning between the words "Obsolete" and "Obsolescent". "Obsolete" means you are completely outclassed and have no chance, "Obsolescent" means you have tipped the scales heavily in favor of the opponent.

I wouldn't argue whether the P-40 turns better in WB than the P-38. I wouldn't play that game. I would stay above you, and every time you tried to run I would hit you and pull up. Once I was above you, there isn't a thing you could do but evade.

This isn't a challenge, and don't take it as such. I am only saying that, if I use the trump cards of speed and climb, the P-38 wins hands-down. Surely you can see what I am saying?

VISCONTI

  • Guest
Commentary by a P-40 ACE
« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2000, 05:24:00 PM »
Bring the P-40 to AH is a beautiful plane!!!

If people need ultrapower plane to be satisfied his not my problem i can fight u all whit any plane   !

 

PS: sometime i'm not serious   , just give us that plane.

funked

  • Guest
Commentary by a P-40 ACE
« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2000, 05:28:00 PM »
Well said fire_ant.  The P-39 was deficient in range and altitude performance, two factors which meant a lot over the Pacific or over the Reich, but were not a factor on the Ostfront.  

P-40 would be a great addition to AH, although I'd rather see the late-war plane set finished before focusing on a different period.  The cool thing about doing an early P-40 model is that you get a P-36 almost for free.  

[This message has been edited by funked (edited 07-27-2000).]

fire_ant

  • Guest
Commentary by a P-40 ACE
« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2000, 05:50:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kieren:

>chance, "Obsolescent" means you have tipped >the scales heavily in favor of the opponent.

/QUOTE

Ok thanks for the etimology lesson (seriously), but I don't think P-40's (or P39's) were either obsolete 'obsolescent' by this standard.

Quote
>I wouldn't argue whether the P-40 turns >better in WB than the P-38. I wouldn't play >that game. I would stay above you, and >every time you tried to run I would hit you >and pull up. Once I was above you, there >isn't a thing you could do but evade.
/QUOTE

Ok, granted, I have two arguments though.  This is essentially the case for any BNZ fighter which has a climb advantage over any other plane.  You could say the same thing about a Spit mk V probably, and it's not obsolesecnt. In any event that battle would really depend how good you were at B&Nzing with how good I was at keeping my speed up and being able to turn my nose at you at just the right second.  But I'll grant you have the advantage of chosing engagement.
On the other hand, the scenario you cite while fair, is not necessarily very realistic.  For the sake of argument I'll say you win in this scenario.  But what if you are escorting some dive bombers to attack an airfield and I'm in an equally matched group of P-40's flying CAP at altitude... you might not have so much success...


Anyway as an amateur historian I think it is very intersting how much these more realistic simulation games have shed light on the performance and relative qualities of these magnificent machines... it is what makes them more than just a game

DB

Offline Kieren

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3
Commentary by a P-40 ACE
« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2000, 11:44:00 PM »
I hope you understand I wasn't trying to pick a fight with you. I like the P-40, and I think it is essential for scenarios. I do study history, too (in fact, I teach it!).  

Offline Kieren

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3
Commentary by a P-40 ACE
« Reply #10 on: July 28, 2000, 12:49:00 PM »
BTW, when I stated "I wouldn't play that game" I was referring to flying my P-38 in a way the P-40 has an advantage, not making snide comments about Warbirds. After re-reading the post I saw room for misinterpretation.  

fire_ant

  • Guest
Commentary by a P-40 ACE
« Reply #11 on: July 31, 2000, 12:36:00 PM »
and here is yet another juicy series of anecdotes...

P-40E -vs- P-40N
Lt. Sammy A. Pierce, 49th Fighter Group/5th Air Force
 
"From a maintenance standpoint, the P40E was a much better built aircraft; the P-40N appeared to be a lightweight, very cheap copy with pretty poor workmanship, poor fittings, clearances and tolerances. The P-40N actually required more maintenance man hours even though it did not have many of the normal components of the P-40E, such as an internal starter, vacuum pumps, and other items. After we received the P-40N, we lost two or three due to material failures before we could correct all the deficiencies. We had to replace the main oil line, which was too light to stand up under engine pressure, and build up the wheel spindles, which were too small and allowed the wheels to wobble, resulting in excessive tire wear and blown tires. After these problems were corrected, the P-40Ns were fairly easy to maintain and keep in commission.
From a performance standpoint, the P40N would outperform the P-40E in many respects, including rate of climb and turning radius. There was not improvement though to try to out turn the Zekes, Oscars or Hamps. The P40N would out turn the Tony, which we began to run into in late '43. I had the utmost confidence in the P40E, and felt that as long as the engine ran, the airplane would stay airborne regardless of the other damage. Several times when flying both numbers 42 and 50, I took some good hits, but it did not hurt the flying characteristics or performance of the P-40E, and at least twice, number 55 was shot up pretty good.
The P-40N, being lighter, had a much better rate of climb and was a little faster on the straight and level, but, on the other hand, from a standing start, we could take off and climb to altitude about as fast with the old P-40E because of the extra time required to hand crank the engine starter on the P-40N. The only thing in the theater that would out dive the P-40E, was the P-47. With either model we could out climb any version of the Zero in a shallow high-speed climb but the advantage was too small to chance it if he was in range, unless you were on the deck and had no other choice. The Tony (Ki 61 Hein) could out run either of the P-40 models. The Hamp was the fastest of the Zeros, but we saw very few of these. I had always felt that I could out run them and out zoom them, but I never got a chance to find out. The Oscar was probably the slowest Japanese fighter in the theater and had very little armament, but it was a performing fool. An experienced pilot in an Oscar was not as much a threat to an experienced P-40 pilot because of the Oscar's lack of guns and the P-40's ability to take it, but he could send you home talking to yourself. The P-40 would have had to rely on mutual support and turning tactics against the Frank and George, but would still have a slight edge in firepower because our .50 caliber machine guns had a little more range than their 12.5mm guns, as well as a faster rate of fire.
The Zero was a good fighter, every version or mark number of it, and I guess I must have encountered six to eight different versions, their only deficiency was in armament. Another problem was the pilots. Until late 1943, they had a number of good, experienced pilots, but thank goodness, they were seldom coordinated in their attacks, otherwise there are probably many of us who wouldn't be around now. Starting in 1944 they just didn't have enough experienced pilots left who knew what they were doing, and things went downhill from that point on.
As far as dive or level bombers were concerned, the Japanese never put anything in the air that was a problem for the P-40s except possibly in altitude. The Betty could operate above you but for some strange reason, except for recon flights, they were usually down around 18,000 to 22,000 feet, and we could stagger up to 25,000 to 26,000 feet. The Betty had twin 20mm cannons in the tail that made the tail an unpopular area of attack, so most of our attacks were either frontal or overhead whenever possible

Offline Downtown

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12
      • http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1
Commentary by a P-40 ACE
« Reply #12 on: August 01, 2000, 01:18:00 PM »
I am gathering info for the WWIIOnline Techpubs Site and will be writing the piece on the P-40 (Probably other American Fighters too, since I bought "America's 0ne Hunderd Thousand.")

Lately several WWII Vetran have been posting pieces in the "Friends Journal" a quarterly News Letter from the USAFM.

Can you provide a reference for your P-40E and N comparrison so I can try to contact the author and use this info.

The P-40 Generally got longer and Slower as the war Progressed, the B was the fastest at 352MPH IAS at 10,000Ft.

I have read numerous articles that said a P-40 would out turn a 109 below 15,000 Ft.

Nothing would out turn the Japanese Aircraft, but the U.S.A.A.C. wanted Dogfighters that were rugged and flew below 15,000 Ft.  The P-40 won the Army Contract because it met those specifications. Faster than 350 below 15,000, rugged and easily maintained and fly close support missions.  Very quickly the U.S. Pilots learned that altitude was life in Air Combat.  The Germans hated to be dragged down to the deck because that is where the performance of their aircraft was weakest.

The P-40 Was produced throughout the war and served in the Air Forces of over 28 different countries.

Anyhow I would like a P-40 in AH.  My preference would be for the B in the following Paint Scheme.

   


------------------
   
"Downtown" Lincoln Brown.
      lkbrown1@tir.com      
 http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1
Wrecking Crews "Drag and Die Guy"
Hals und beinbruch!

[This message has been edited by Downtown (edited 08-01-2000).]

fire_ant

  • Guest
Commentary by a P-40 ACE
« Reply #13 on: August 01, 2000, 05:42:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Downtown:
I am gathering info for the WWIIOnline Techpubs Site and will be writing the piece on the P-40 (Probably other American Fighters too, since I bought "America's 0ne Hunderd Thousand.")
(snip)
Can you provide a reference for your P-40E and N comparrison so I can try to contact the author and use this info.
/B  

This sounds fascinating, please let me know if you need help with this project.  I found the P40E versus P40N thing on that same P40.com website you mentioned in your other post.  The 325 fighter group website has a bunch of interesting anecdotes about P40's in combat as well, they seem to have done very well with them indeed.


The P-40 Generally got longer and Slower as the war Progressed, the B was the fastest at 352MPH IAS at 10,000Ft.


I think you are wrong here.  The P40B was definately one of the more nimble versions, but the E, F and most models of the N were faster, and probably every version except the K.  The E-1 had a top speed of 362 mph at 15,000 feet (The complete book of fighers. William Green, Salamander Books ISBN 0-8317-3939-8), the merlin powered F had a top speed of 364 mph at 20,000' (same source) and there were various versions of the N, produced with a wide range of engines and equipment (some only had 4 guns) speed ranged from 378 mph in some of the more souped up versions to 348 mph in some of the later versions which were relegated to training duties...


I have read numerous articles that said a P-40 would out turn a 109 below 15,000 Ft.

Nothing would out turn the Japanese Aircraft, but the U.S.A.A.C. wanted Dogfighters that were rugged and flew below 15,000 Ft.  The P-40 won the Army Contract because it met those specifications. Faster than 350 below 15,000, rugged and easily maintained and fly close support missions.  
(snip)
Anyhow I would like a P-40 in AH.  My preference would be for the B in the following Paint Scheme.


I would like to see the P40B, P40E or F, and the (hot rod version)of the P40N!  Mostly, I suspect that due to the bad rep of the P40 (and probably some other planes too) I think the developers of some of these sims, both ofline and otherwise, have tended to undermodel or fudge numbers a bit so it would perform worse.  In spite of this the P40 is looking better and better in each new sim I see it in.  I hope they don't make this mistake in AH.  

(can somebody explain to me how to paste photos into these messages?  For some reason I can't!)

DB

Offline Kieren

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3
Commentary by a P-40 ACE
« Reply #14 on: August 01, 2000, 06:10:00 PM »
 
Quote
I would like to see the P40B, P40E or F, and the (hot rod version)of the P40N! Mostly, I suspect that due to the bad rep of the P40 (and probably some other planes too) I think the developers of some of these sims, both ofline and otherwise, have tended to undermodel or fudge numbers a bit so it would perform worse.

Again, I have to disagree. This comment would suggest that developers intentionally "dumb-down" planes to make their preferred aircraft sparkle in comparison. Unfortunately, this is not the first time this has been stated here.

What does HTC have to gain to dumb-down anything? Especially an aircraft as ubiquitous as the P-40, the fighter available in the most numbers in the early part of the war, and one that served in every theatre of action?

I think it is great you have a favorite aircraft, and hope HTC models it some day. I have a feeling, based on what you've written, that you won't like it when they do. I hope I am wrong.