Formation Flying

[SEraider]

To the pilots and military pilots that play this game:

In formation flying, do the flight models in this game appropriatly represent real life flight models (or close to it)?  I find formation flying in this game is a little hard.  However the pilots in my flight club make it look comfortable and easy. 

Is it just a lot of hours in real life to formation fly effectively or is the flight model in this game just makes it nearly impossible to fly formations?

[Cobra516]

I fly a Super Cub (my dads) and have some time flying formation with it - and it is quite a bit easier to fly formation in real life than it is in the sim.  You have more cues to let you know what the plane is doing and how you're moving in relation to the other airplane.  You've got the sound / feel of the engine, feel of the G's, feel of the controls, and also have better depth perception so it seems that you can catch relative movement a bit quicker than you might be able to in the game.  The controls are much more solid feeling than a joystick, there isn't that annoying clunk near the center when traversing X and Y axis - so it allows you to make smoother and finer control inputs.  The tendancy to porpoise is greatly reduced as well in the real airplane.  It seems that the pilot induced oscillations (PIO) are the biggest problem for people flying tight formation in the sim. 

One reason that it's probably easier in real life, in my case, is because I'm not going 300+ MPH,    The faster you go, the control inputs required to move a certain distance in a certain amount of time become smaller, so it's probably fairly easy to get PIO flying in a faster/more maneuverable airplane if you're not familiar with how it's going to react to control inputs.  However, there's also much more stick force required to pull X amount of G's in most high performance airplanes, so that helps reduce the tendancy to PIO.  I think I read that it's 20lbs of stick force per 1 G in the Mustang.

With practice though, you can get pretty good in the sim.  I've always really enjoyed flying formation and like to think that I've become fairly proficient with it in the sim - the concentration required to fly it well really makes the time go by quickly while I'm enroute to the target.

Here's a video I made a while back of some AHII formation flying in '51's - I was flying too deep most of the time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qd4O3UIB0gw&feature=channel_page

and here's some Cub formation - you can see how it doesn't look nearly as twitchy as in the sim (but it's also not a high performance airplane, lol)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7P8y2V00X-4&feature=channel

Wolfala has some cool videos of him in a Cirrus SR-22, and even though it's a faster airplane, you can tell it's still very stable and not twitchy like the airplanes in the sim - which is a result of the limitations of most joysticks.

[RufusLeaking]

Is it just a lot of hours in real life to formation fly effectively or is the flight model in this game just makes it nearly impossible to fly formations?

It is not the modeling that makes formation flying in AH squirrelly.  In my opinion, it is lag that makes it tough to tuck in.  Real life formation flying is about very small adjustments.  A second factor is the visual cues.  My formation experience dates back to my time in T-37s and T-38s.  The wingman would reference details on lead such as seams in the aluminum skin, or rivets.  Basically, one needed to establish two lines and stay at the intersection of them.  This is difficult in AH.

In AH as in RL, lead can help the wingman by setting throttle to less than full.  This gives number two some options, especially on the outside of the turn.

However the pilots in my flight club make it look comfortable and easy. 

What is this?  I thought the first rule of flight club was not to talk about flight club.

[SEraider]

What is this?  I thought the first rule of flight club was not to talk about flight club.

I'm not supposed to talk about my squadron in real life??? I didn't know that was a rule. lol

[100hooch]

The modeling for the bombers is a great deal easier than in real life -- especially the heavies.  From everything I have been able to read, the wake turbulence off a buff was atrocious, and increased geometrically with the number of ships in the formation.  In fact auto-pilot was impossible, resulting in pilot and co-pilot having to wrestle the plane for entire flight just to maintain straight and level.

I can't speak for the fighters, but seeing as how wake turbulence isn't modeled, its absense has be one factor making formations easier.

[Grape]

Flying in formation can give you "Street Cred"

---observe...  http://www.grapheine.com/bombaytv/movie-uk-f67ba3684efe07b9e20b16f0aaaa472c.html

[Cobra516]

The modeling for the bombers is a great deal easier than in real life -- especially the heavies.  From everything I have been able to read, the wake turbulence off a buff was atrocious, and increased geometrically with the number of ships in the formation.  In fact auto-pilot was impossible, resulting in pilot and co-pilot having to wrestle the plane for entire flight just to maintain straight and level.

I can't speak for the fighters, but seeing as how wake turbulence isn't modeled, its absense has be one factor making formations easier.

Well you really don't get wake turbulence unless you're down below and behind the airplane you're following, - you wouldn't encounter it in a normal V formation flying in fighters, 
unless your element was behind / below another element in front.

I would think they would have stacked the bombers so as to avoid wake turbulence to the max extent possible, but who knows, guess that wasn't the case, lol.

"At altitude, vortices sink at a rate of 90 to 150 metres per minute and stabilize about 150 to 270 metres below the flight level of the generating aircraft." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wake_turbulence 

[frank3]

Also, IRL you didn't have the X button, keeping you nice and straight

[mechanic]

I fly a Super Cub (my dads) and have some time flying formation with it - and it is quite a bit easier to fly formation in real life than it is in the sim.  You have more cues to let you know what the plane is doing and how you're moving in relation to the other airplane.  You've got the sound / feel of the engine, feel of the G's, feel of the controls, and also have better depth perception so it seems that you can catch relative movement a bit quicker than you might be able to in the game.  The controls are much more solid feeling than a joystick, there isn't that annoying clunk near the center when traversing X and Y axis - so it allows you to make smoother and finer control inputs.  The tendancy to porpoise is greatly reduced as well in the real airplane.  It seems that the pilot induced oscillations (PIO) are the biggest problem for people flying tight formation in the sim. 

One reason that it's probably easier in real life, in my case, is because I'm not going 300+ MPH,    The faster you go, the control inputs required to move a certain distance in a certain amount of time become smaller, so it's probably fairly easy to get PIO flying in a faster/more maneuverable airplane if you're not familiar with how it's going to react to control inputs.  However, there's also much more stick force required to pull X amount of G's in most high performance airplanes, so that helps reduce the tendancy to PIO.  I think I read that it's 20lbs of stick force per 1 G in the Mustang.

With practice though, you can get pretty good in the sim.  I've always really enjoyed flying formation and like to think that I've become fairly proficient with it in the sim - the concentration required to fly it well really makes the time go by quickly while I'm enroute to the target.

Here's a video I made a while back of some AHII formation flying in '51's - I was flying too deep most of the time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qd4O3UIB0gw&feature=channel_page

and here's some Cub formation - you can see how it doesn't look nearly as twitchy as in the sim (but it's also not a high performance airplane, lol)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7P8y2V00X-4&feature=channel

Wolfala has some cool videos of him in a Cirrus SR-22, and even though it's a faster airplane, you can tell it's still very stable and not twitchy like the airplanes in the sim - which is a result of the limitations of most joysticks.

I added you as a favortie when i first saw this ages ago (my ID is 'aerovid'). Definitely the very best example i've ever seen of AH2 formation flying.

S!

[PapaFox]

I've done a fair amount of formation flying in RL light single-engine planes as well as in Aces High. Yes, Aces High is noticeably tougher to fly close formation. Here are items which make virtual formation tougher.
* Less sensitive controls- CH Products sticks can't complete in terms of small adjustments compared with a real plane's stick
* Less resolution- Higher resolution in real life let's you recognize relative differences quicker
* net lag
* no "seat of the pants" cues
* flight modeling: Aces High is pretty good, but some factors such as a requirement for holding rudder in turns is inaccurate
* high-speed aircraft: Try flying formation in Aces High B-17s some time. It's easier than formation flying in Aces high-speed fighters

All of this said, I've had a blast with Aces High formation flying, and I find it a huge help for staying sharp for the next RL formation flying. My favorite formation flight in Aces High? Leading a flight of 4 P-51s in formation aerobatics over an airfield with HiTech off my left Wing, Lyle Shelton "Rare Bear" Pilot off my right wing, and callsign Thunder in the slot position. Loops, barrel-rolls, and cuban-eights. Woopee!