Removing and suspending squads in FSO

[Gaidin]

(Image removed from quote.)
And on the features page '•Participate in special events recreating scenarios from World War II.'

FSO is a Historical Scenario is it not... As advertised here on the welcome gif and features, making it part of the deal.

As much as i am thankful for the guys that volenteer to set this up for us, the system of suspending for going over on numbers is clearly wrong.. They need changing.

I don't want to fly with any other squads, i love the one i'm in, and i will show them absolute loyalty for allowing me the privalige to fly with them during the week and FSO's etc.

(This is my opinion i have put forth, and not that of my squad)

As you stated Sir.  FSO is one of the historical Events mentioned on the welcome gif.  Every part of Aces High has a rule set though.  If you go into the MAs making profane/racial remarks and are reported, you will be muted by the moderators.  If you continue beyond that, I am sure HTC has other methods of dealing with it.  I can not speak for them.

FSO in turn, has a set of rules.  If those rules are not followed, then a squad or player may be suspended or permanently removed.  Did you know that your squad was over on numbers?  If so, why didn't you sit out, or go as only an observer/gunner.  If you did not know, then the blame falls on your CO because he did know.  It is the responsibility of every squad and participant of FSO to know the posted rules.  Commitment levels are there for a reason.  If every squad on a side goes 5 over and the other side follows the rules, then events can be ruined.  Your squad has been suspended.  I see no reason that would change. 

[APDrone]

(Image removed from quote.)
And on the features page '•Participate in special events recreating scenarios from World War II.'

FSO is a Historical Scenario is it not... As advertised here on the welcome gif and features, making it part of the deal.

As much as i am thankful for the guys that volenteer to set this up for us, the system of suspending for going over on numbers is clearly wrong.. They need changing.

I don't want to fly with any other squads, i love the one i'm in, and i will show them absolute loyalty for allowing me the privalige to fly with them during the week and FSO's etc.

(This is my opinion i have put forth, and not that of my squad)

You're still allowed to participate, if you abide by the rules of belonging to, or being a guest of, a registered squad.  

If you choose to not be a guest, then that is YOUR choice.  Not something imposed on you by outside forces.

If you do not understand the importance of setting and enforcing minimums and maximums of pilots flying for a given squad, then you haven't had the privelege of organizing and directing an event where side assignments, target selections, historical statistics are factored to provide a balanced fight amongst 500 players.. only to have the hours of planning and effort dashed by having a couple no-show squads on one side and 1 or 2 over-allotment squads on the other.  What was supposed to be a 50-50 slugfest turns into a 60-40 rout.  

"Frustrating" doesn't even begin to come close.

[Glen69]

If you choose to not be a guest, then that is YOUR choice.  Not something imposed on you by outside forces.

On the contrary it’s being imposed on me to guest and not fly with the guys I like flying with. Suspension of the squad I fly with was not my choice.

why didn't you sit out, or go as only an observer/gunner

Going 1 or 2 pilots over allocated didn’t seem much of a problem; after all it’s more targets for the other team. (least I see it that way)

If you do not understand the importance of setting and enforcing minimums and maximums of pilots flying for a given squad, then you haven't had the privelege of organizing and directing an event where side assignments, target selections, historical statistics are factored to provide a balanced fight amongst 500 players.. only to have the hours of planning and effort dashed by having a couple no-show squads on one side and 1 or 2 over-allotment squads on the other.  What was supposed to be a 50-50 slugfest turns into a 60-40 rout

But you kinda take the fun out of the game, going all square and suspending a squad for 1 or 2 extras. After all it is a game, being historically accurate is an aim, but I don’t particularly care on inaccuracies. If I wanted that much realism I’d join the service. ~Even a 50-50 can turn into a rout.

"Frustrating" doesn't even begin to come close.

Frustrating is that I stay awake until 5am to enjoy all the FSO, and now I can't enjoy it, because 1 or 2 extra pilots wanted to enjoy the FSO experience with us.
Frustrating is that for I can’t enjoy August FSO because the pathetic rules have suspended the squad I enjoy flying with.
Frustrating is that the rule set (not set up by HTC) seem to me, totalitarian and are going to ruin my FSO experience and respect for those that give their time (CM team)… Well I give my time too, to participate in FSO, after all without pilots there is no FSO. This suspending for "too many" rule needs revising, there has to be a better solution than suspending squads, and making its pilot guest. Also guesting doesn’t guarantee me a spot on FSO.

It needs to be clearly stated on the features page and gif that the Historical Scenarios are not set by HTC, but by volunteers of the game. That way people like me won’t be deceived.

(This is my opinion i have put forth, and not that of my squad)

[Saxman]

The squad was suspended by the CMs and the reason was given. You don't think it's fair? Well what about the squads on the other side? Was it fair to them that your squad was over their maximum allowed numbers and they had to deal with more enemy than they would have otherwise because of it?

As has been said, there are NUMEROUS options for squads over in their numbers to take advantage of so they don't go over their commitment level. It's not like policing numbers is even anything NEW. My squad hasn't been involved with FSO as long as some of the others but I've seen plenty of reminders and warnings by the CM staff about commitment levels. Your squad violated the rules, they have to accept the consequences.

You don't like it? Then quit because I guarantee you no one here will be sad to see that sort of attitude go. Otherwise deal with it.

[VonMessa]

(Image removed from quote.)
And on the features page '•Participate in special events recreating scenarios from World War II.'

FSO is a Historical Scenario is it not... As advertised here on the welcome gif and features, making it part of the deal.

As much as i am thankful for the guys that volenteer to set this up for us, the system of suspending for going over on numbers is clearly wrong.. They need changing.

I don't want to fly with any other squads, i love the one i'm in, and i will show them absolute loyalty for allowing me the privalige to fly with them during the week and FSO's etc.

(This is my opinion i have put forth, and not that of my squad)

Then you shouldn't be having such an issue with a show of solidarity by being loyal during the suspension.

The rules do not need changing.  If it weren't for the rules, FSO would be a free-for-all just like the MA.

The CM's are appointed to their positions because they have put in their time over the years, and have followed the rules, as stated.

Without completely repeating what has been already stated, it really destroys the balance when guys don't show up, and when guys have too many show up.

If you have never CM'd an event or have never spoken to a CM about the responsibilities involved, than you do not have an inkling of the type of heartburn that this gives someone after they have put a few hours of their personal time into planning it.  That is why squad CO's are asked for a commitment of numbers beforehand.  Commitment implies that you are making a promise.

On the subject of the $14.95 I, also will play the selfish view................

The few times out of my busy schedule that I can devote to FSO are important to me, also.  To have a chance to fly in an event with my squad without the normal MA drudgery is a fine time to be had.  Like the CM's, there is planning involved for me, also.  I make sure that my house is squared away, and the my 88 year old Grandfather, my wife, and my 2 kids are completely settled in so that there is nary a chance that I will be disturbed for the short 2 hours (if I don't die) at 11 PM on a Friday night.  I take great pains to make sure I have fulfilled my role as Grandson, Caregiver, Husband, and Father so that I may turn off the lights, put on my headphones, tin-foil hat and Lederhosen.  The fan is on, in my face and blowing my scarf around.  The ashtray is empty and the pack of cigarettes is fresh.  I have a full beer, one in the wings and the gatorade bottle is empty, ready to go.  I have read the orders, and ask questions of my CO if I do not understand them.  

In short, I am ready to spin wood at 2300 EST.  I have prepared to ignore my family for a 2 full hours and try to immerse myself as much as humanly possible into playing airplane for the duration.  I am that fanatical about doing so because, unless someone proves to me otherwise, this is about as close to WWII fighter combat/mission running, as I am going to get.

That's what my $14.95 gets me, so you are not the only one here, my friend..............

Now, change/add a few details to that story.   On average there are 400 to 600 names you could substitute as the author and they will probably all sound similar, although there is probably going to be about 100 or so told with an accent, as I have not yet mentioned our non-American friends that wake up at 3, 4 or 5 AM local time to participate.

It seems to me that you are more than happy to piss on a lot of people's Cheerios because a few simple can't be followed.

[TheBug]

You chose to participate in FSO yet failed to make an effort to read and comprehend the rules.  Your CO didn't make an effort to enforce those rules. 

It is the sudden rash of lack of effort in FSO that has been the biggest turn off for me.  That in no way is the responsibility of the CMs I pin that on the Squadron COs/Contact List.  Whether you know it or not when you joined FSO you made a commitment, your squad made a commitment.  With that commitment comes a level of responsibility, if your squad is not willing to live up to that then I say good riddance.  I hardly believe the quality of FSO improves with more players. I am all for the suspensions where warranted.  I'm sure Daddog doesn't enjoy having to suspend anyone, he's just doing his "job"  Shame on you for putting him into that position.

Instead of just complaining and having a piss poor attitude why don't you spend the time off in a constructive manner and read up on the rules of FSO.  Become familiar with what you committed to and ways to insure when the time comes to CiC you will be prepared.

Although I can understand your frustration at missing out on the best thing Aces High has to offer, you're not going to get any sympathy here.  The blame does not fall one step outside your own squadron.

[Hamltnblue]

Exactly how many pilots is LCA flying these days? 

[ghostdancer]

LCA commitment level was 16-21. You are allowed to go over by +2 and under by -2. Consistently going over by +2 or under by -2 is not supposed to be the norm and basically if you do a squad is supposed to re-evaluate its commitment level for the next event.

LCA FR1 = 27 (over by +4 .. max allowed 23)
LCA FR2 = 24 (over by +1 .. max allowed 23)
LCA FR3 = 27 (over by +4 .. max allowed 23)

The 1 month suspension in this case happened because of LCA going over their max numbers in all 3 frames. As you see it was not a case of 1 or 2 over. I believe there was also conversation between Daddog and the squad CO on this issue but I was not privileged to that and could be in error.

As stated this is not the MA or actually another Special Event. The rules on min and max have been in place for years. Command Staffs are supposed to keep an eye on things and make adjustments. FSO hinges on squad Command staffs helping to enforce the rules of the event. To make sure their players fly the planes assigned (instead of possibly taking a different ride they prefer than what a CiC assigned them), making sure that their pilots don't up for a second life unless the rules allow them, making sure they make their commitment numbers and not going under or below, and a whole host of others things.

The Command Staff of squads are the first gate keepers of this event. Many times the admin CM can only spot things after the event has happened and issues warnings or take more severe action afterwards. CMs do judge on a case by case basis. However, there are times there are clear violations and squads do incur a sanction.

In addition to say .. "so we went over what is the big deal" is incorrect. Lets say every squad now goes over by 4 (because a precedent has been set). There were 23 squads on the Axis side during this FSO I believe. So that is a possible additional 92 pilots. Lets say just 1/3rd, 7 squads go over, that is an additional 28 pilots. Both numbers are more than enough to affect the outcome of the event. Heck lets even say a squad went over by an additional +4 and lets say they were bombers or JABOs and lets say it resulted in a CV being sunk that would not have been otherwise. I think you start to get an idea of the tangled issues that can result. It doesn't matter if it didn't or not. It matters that a rule was drawn and crossed three times and that the breaking of that rule can affect an event in negative ways.


Remember we already give you a cushion of +2 to cover the unforeseen so that you can add on +2 over your max. In this case you went +6, +3, and +6 over 21. The +2 reduces it to +4, +1, +4 .. we have to draw the limit somewhere otherwise it starts to become a free for all where people start to say we can fudge this rule and then maybe that rule to. That is actually the hardest part of being a CM doing a constant analysis to see if rules were abided by or not.



Since this is a structured event limits must be placed. Unfortunately this affected your squad. But as stated the event does hinge on squads taking responsibility and policing their own in quite a few circumstances.

[Hamltnblue]

Thanks
Question was for another reason
 

[TheBug]

Thanks
Question was for another reason
 

You're such a dirty hooker HB!   

[ghostdancer]

With all that said the LCA pilots have 2 choices at the moment.

1) Sit out the August FSO (1 month suspension)
2) Contact other squads about flying as guests with them and in their colors in the August FSO

LCA then can fly again in their own colors and as a squad in September.

As for August I am sure quite a few squads would welcome yours to fly with them for this month.

[SkyRock]

The muppets are waiting on an apology from daddog for accusing us of skipping out on fr 2 because we didnt like the ride.  After hearing the explanation, he still insisted that we skipped because of the ride.... I do not like being falsly accused, noone does, and I have the proof to show that the ride had nothing to do why we were 3 pilots off that night.  

I do not want to start a big stink about it, but he has ignored my e-mails....and I don't want to be associated with someone who treats us in that manner....yet I enjoy the event as well as other Muppets.....  I also contacted Brooke, and was told that me and daddog would have to work it out.  How can I work it out, if he ignores me and refuses to back off his false allegations?   I would have rather this be settled behind close doors, but  with a direct attack on my squad, and subsequent refusal by daddog to admit he made a mistake,  it seems this is not the way this event should be handled.  We fly FSO because we like the historical part of the game...including flying what we are told to fly, and making the mission top priority, not because we get to fly our fav fun rides....and we will not tolerate being falsly accused of anything to the contrary.

I told daddog that our FSO leader's comp crashed and he was not able to get online to tell us he wasnt going to make it, plus he usually gets everyone together, and that I had promised my children to take them to see "Ice Age" that night, neither of which had anything to do with what ride we were assigned.  I am posting a pic of our forum the monday following fr 2.

Just had to get this off my chest, the ball is in his court, maybe he will man up.  It can't be that hard to apologize when you are wrong.


SkyRock  
CO/ Army of Muppets

[grizz441]

LCA commitment level was 16-21. You are allowed to go over by +2 and under by -2. Consistently going over by +2 or under by -2 is not supposed to be the norm and basically if you do a squad is supposed to re-evaluate its commitment level for the next event.

LCA FR1 = 27 (over by +4 .. max allowed 23)
LCA FR2 = 24 (over by +1 .. max allowed 23)
LCA FR3 = 27 (over by +4 .. max allowed 23)

The 1 month suspension in this case happened because of LCA going over their max numbers in all 3 frames.

These rules/penalties are an absolute joke.  They don't provide enough wiggle room that a Friday night event should provide.  Last time I checked, Friday was a good RL type night also.  It's generally a crapshoot on who will show up.  Sure, you've got a few regulars that will probably be locked in 90% of the time but then you have a bunch of guys who will be 50/50 on any given Friday.  Instead of suspending, why not just increase their commitment level or at least attempt to compromise a more suitable level for the August event.  I guess the power trip isn't as fun when you try to compromise a solution though.  Iron Clad Fist Ftw! 

I've flown FSO where we had over a 100 less pilots than the other side but still had a blast.  It's not a big deal, sometimes war isn't fair.  You could always add some adjustment factor to the points system to accommodate for the number differences because no matter what you do and how unfairly you punish squads... numbers will always be off.

[TheBug]

It is a commitment level that has to last 3 weeks, with a little fore thought it can be quite accurate especially with the +/- 2 be adequate wiggle room.  Commit to a level you are certain you will reach each week, the squaddies that are uncertain due to real-life considerations should be understanding of only be allowed to participate( with you squadron) on a first come first served basis till you max commitment level is reached.

[Saxman]

It doesn't even need to be first-come, first-served. With my squad I poll for volunteers to fly with another group, gun a bomber, or sit out. There's always SOMEONE willing to step up, often times more than one, and I've never had to put my foot down as C/O to keep us under our max.