Author Topic: You know what the problem with the N1K2J might also be...  (Read 386 times)

Offline GRUNHERZ

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 13413
You know what the problem with the N1K2J might also be...
« on: August 30, 2001, 05:45:00 AM »
Maybe other people thought of this before , but oh well.

With the recent discussions about Il2 many people asked for the 109s leading edge slats to be modeled in AH, then people responded that AH models the slats in the FM numbers and just doesnt do it graphically.

That brings me to the N1K2Js automatic flaps.

People say that HTC models them in the FM numbers and doesnt graphically. So basically the AH N1K2J enjoys the benefit of the flaps in the FM.

But you can then also manually use the flaps again.

Doesnt this mean that the AH N1K2J models the extra lift and manuver benefits of the flaps twice?

Could this explain the N1K2Js often bizzare behavior at very slow speeds and very high AOA?


Add this to the vertical/climb issues reported before and one can easily see that could make the N1K2J behave strangly and pull of unxepected manuvers and have unusual behavior.

What do you guys think? What does HTC think?

Offline ft

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 39
      • http://www.sparta.lu.se/~ft/
You know what the problem with the N1K2J might also be...
« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2001, 06:09:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ:
That brings me to the N1K2Js automatic flaps.

People say that HTC models them in the FM numbers and doesnt graphically. So basically the AH N1K2J enjoys the benefit of the flaps in the FM.

But you can then also manually use the flaps again.

Doesnt this mean that the AH N1K2J models the extra lift and manuver benefits of the flaps twice?

Could this explain the N1K2Js often bizzare behavior at very slow speeds and very high AOA?


Add this to the vertical/climb issues reported before and one can easily see that could make the N1K2J behave strangly and pull of unxepected manuvers and have unusual behavior.

What do you guys think? What does HTC think?

Until we know how their flight models work (and I somehow don't think they're too anxious to release that information) we can only speculate. The way I would do it is I would have different curves for lift/drag coefficients for each wing profile in each slat/slot/flap configuration. Then, to simulate the intermediate positions I'd probably interpolate.

I find it very unlikely that they're using a model where the effects of various high lift/stall delay devices are simply added onto the Cl/Cd curves.

Cheers,
  /ft

Offline flakbait

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 867
      • http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6
You know what the problem with the N1K2J might also be...
« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2001, 09:24:00 AM »
Pyro said in one of the N1K threads that the automatic flap system is not modeled. Most likely the problem is too much lift being generated by the wing, or so Pyro speculated.


-----------------------
Flakbait [Delta6]
Delta Six's Flight School
Put the P-61B in Aces High
"With all due respect Chaplian, I don't think my maker wants to hear from me right now. I'm gonna go out there and remove one of His creations from this universe.
And when I get back I'm gonna drink a bottle of Scotch like it was Chiggy von
Richthofen's blood and celebrate his death."
Col. McQueen, Space: Above and Beyond

 

Offline Kweassa

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6425
You know what the problem with the N1K2J might also be...
« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2001, 11:22:00 AM »
Still got me confused.

 Does that mean:

 a) Auto-flap "SYSTEMS" not modelled

<meaning> the overall performance of the aircraft is correctly simulated according to data HTC looked up... but in which case, it is highly probable that this data on N1K2-J was according to test results where the automatic flap features were already working in action(since it is automatic, like, the data isn't from a plane where it's auto flaps were 'turned off', using only it's initial ability of performance .. turn.. roll .. etc..)... therefore, the plane's performance in AH - 'flight model' - already includes from the start the efficiency of auto-flaps, as a 'part of the FM', but it is technically, not 'modelled in systematically' nor 'represented' in any sort of fashion...

 or

 b) Auto-flap "SYSTEMS PERFORMANCE" itself is not modelled

<meaning> The increased efficiency via the use of auto flaps itself is not modelled. In this case, it would mean the whole performance of the N1K2-J would be according to how the plane would perform with the auto flap features - theoretically - disabled. So, the advantages earned via auto flaps is from the start, not included in the N1K2-J 'FM', and the seemingly astounding rate of turn and energy maintenance of the N1K2-J is its birthright.

 If it were the case of a), it would explain a lot, especially concerning the remark "too much lift being generated by the wing". If it were the case of b)... gee.. if the N1K2 performs like that WITHOUT the auto flaps to aid and assist, I'd hate to see how it'd perform WITH the auto flaps.  :(

 ..

 My specualtion is with a). Though it is not 'systematically' modelled in(such as, auto flaps engaging with the loss of air flow), the advantages of auto flaps is already included within as a part of flight model. In this case, technically, HTC could say 'auto flap systems' is not seperately modelled (not modelled.. just 'included' within the FM...)

 I think this is the case with 109s leading edge slats, too. People have told me the performance of these devices are included in the 109s FM, but not 'systematically' nor 'graphically'. If what those people told me is true, it would mean that 109's 'FM' includes the way how the slat devices would pop out at low speeds and let the plane perform those amazing 'hang on the prop' abilities. But since this slat device doesn't do much with low speed turn fights(hinderance rather than help), people rarely notice that it is there.. we can't see the edges pop out at low speed. It is a part of Bf-109 flight modelling, rather than a seperate system which is modelled in so it would affect the original FM in certain cases where these devices would begin to function.

 If this speculation is correct, it would mean the N1K2-J would be flying as if the auto flaps were always functioning in tight situations(as a part of the 'FM').

 Since it is not a seperately modelled systems device, (unlike the flaps on other planes.. compare the manually engaged combat flaps simulated in P-51 and P-38. These devices are not part of the initial P-51/P-38 'FM', but an outside device which alters the FM during battle... flap engagements can't be said that 'it's a part of the FM') ...

 it would mean the N1K2-J enjoys all the advantages of combat flap engagement WITHOUT any sort of disadvantages that would come with it (severe loss of energy.. we notice this when we engage manually the combat flaps in P-51 or P-38. Increases turn rate, but bleeds E severely).

 The auto flap is NOT a 'modelled-in' system which activates and alters the plane's initial performing conditions - for a price(loss of E). Rather, it is just 'embedded' inside the N1K2 FM. You can't bleed E from a device that doesn't systematically exist, can you?

 I admit i don't understand in anyway how HTC worked out the FM in relation with 'outside devices' like flaps and slats. Just my 2 cents worth of speculation. I really belive my worthless theory explains a lot about the N1K2-J, how it seems to do all the things AH community just gapes at. High G turns.. Maintaining severly tight turns for long periods of time.. pulling out from some weird conditions.. etc etc.

 ...

 Long and boring speculation. I don't intend to prove anything here. Cheers  :)

Offline Tac

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4085
You know what the problem with the N1K2J might also be...
« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2001, 11:25:00 AM »
I think HTC said all planes in the set have their flaps fubar'd. A plane with automatic flaps would have a consistent drag applied to it, slowing it down as it makes its amazing turns.

E-retention is the other thing, i'll wait for next version and see.

Offline minus

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 595
You know what the problem with the N1K2J might also be...
« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2001, 01:40:00 PM »
another bug  the Niki fual loadout

2 fuel tank sometime it drawn fuel  from 2 tanks at time adn sometime  not

 in manual managment time up 2 ce longer
huh

seem niki even dont know  how much fuel have and if emty calculated and not realy empty then niki fly like hell becose no fuel weight in it

Offline -ammo-

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5124
You know what the problem with the N1K2J might also be...
« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2001, 04:35:00 PM »
Has HTC admitted a problem with the N1K? has anyone brought up evidence that there is indeed a FM problem with this AC?

Just curious, I dont remember anything legit. Mostly just speculation from folks that hate being killed by it :)
Commanding Officer, 56 Fighter Group
Retired USAF - 1988 - 2011

Offline Karnak

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23046
You know what the problem with the N1K2J might also be...
« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2001, 04:43:00 PM »
HTC has stated that they plan on looking at and fixing any problems with the N1K2-J's FM in the 1.08 release.
Petals floating by,
      Drift through my woman's hand,
             As she remembers me-

Offline -ammo-

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5124
You know what the problem with the N1K2J might also be...
« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2001, 06:16:00 PM »
yes, But they said exactly that.. they would review the flight model for posibble problems. Their is nothing "known" thtr is wrong with the FW of the N1K, just speculation. Of coarse HTC will review it and if something does come up then they will fix it. I personally hope they dont spend 1.08 time on it :)
Commanding Officer, 56 Fighter Group
Retired USAF - 1988 - 2011