Interesting reading about P-38s (long)

[save]

The P38J models introduced to ETO was not what the 38L described in the text, the Luftwaffe could disengage at will by diving away, something the J model could not follow due to compression.
Bad tactics did not help at all.
The P38 during -44 was very vulnerable in their new role as fighter-bombers according to JG26.

[drgondog]

And it was still losing.

- oldman

Although I generally agree but look to the record of the 479th FG flying late block J-15's (w/o boosted ailerons) under Zemke. They had as good an air to air ratio as any other FG in the ETO. Just before they converted to -51, the 479th received one P-38J-25 for familiarization purposes, but no combat in the J until squadrons in the 9th AF got enough to fly missions in Oct/Nov.

Leadership? More experienced pilots? Better engagement judgment? More reliability with the changes inside the cockpit including heating and fuel management that were installed after March 1944?

[Ack-Ack]

Although I generally agree but look to the record of the 479th FG flying late block J-15's (w/o boosted ailerons) under Zemke. They had as good an air to air ratio as any other FG in the ETO. Just before they converted to -51, the 479th received one P-38J-25 for familiarization purposes, but no combat in the J until squadrons in the 9th AF got enough to fly missions in Oct/Nov.

Leadership? More experienced pilots? Better engagement judgment? More reliability with the changes inside the cockpit including heating and fuel management that were installed after March 1944?

Experience in the P-38 before the 479th left states was a key to the 479th's success in the ETO when they got shipped over seas.

[drgondog]

Experience in the P-38 before the 479th left states was a key to the 479th's success in the ETO when they got shipped over seas.

I've been away from this subject for awhile - apologize for excavating a dead horse.

I devoted a significant amount of time digging into P-38 ETO history for my new book "P-51 Mustang; NAA's Bastard Stepchild that Saved the 8th AF" - (forgive the hyperbole).

First, a mild rebuttal on the comment >experience was the key for the 479th. IMO it was Zemke's leadership as the surge in VC's for the 479th was after he took over in August, 1944 - particularly in late September just before conversion to P-51. A comparison could be the 55th FG which had as much training as the 479th 'in type'.

The resolution of issues with the engines/aftercooler and oil cooler embodied in the early J through mid block J-15, including introduction of second generator to provide cockpit cooling as well as simplified controls, marked the beginning of the P-38 as a fighter pilot's airplane in combat with LW at high altitude ETO conditions. Neither the 479t nor 20th, 55th and 364th ever flew the J-25 with dive flap and boosted ailerons - only the 9th AF got those in October/November and the 15th only got P-38Js in MTO in June/J-25 in November, 1944. Comment here - the 332nd 'Red Tails' outscored each of the VERY experienced 1st, 14th and 82nd FG after they (332nd) converted to Mustangs in the MTO.

For the 8th AF P-38 combat record, the evaluation of USAF 85 VCs to 'probable air to air losses' documented by MACRs, point to about 1.6:1 air to air for all four groups. If you separate the 479th FG, the other 3 FGs were closer to 1:1.

There were six fighter Aces in 479th. Of the 6 (Zemke, Jeffrey, Gleason, Olds, Candelaria and Creighton) ONLY Olds managed to get five in the P-38 in four plus months of operations.

The number of air aces that got five or more in P-38H/J in ETO are barely a handful. The top P-38J ace (Morris 7.33 20th FG) was shot down by an Me 410 after 7 months in combat ops. He was also unique as the first 8th AF pilot to score 4 on one mission. 

The P-38J flown by the 20th, 55th, 364th and 479th also had the highest loss per VC ratio for  airfield strafing. Big target, two vulnerable cooling systems - each prone to quick fires when hit by explosive shells. For the ETO the top VC to strafing loss ratio was the P-51. (IMO that was because the range and reduced target profile enabled the P-51 to strike more less defended airfields early on before the LW upgunned all airfields with light 20mm flak.)

That said, my father's group (355th FG) did not lose Any aces to air to air (of 21) but lost five shot down by flak (one rescued) and one stuck in mud attempting a rescue.

As to '440 mph' top speed for P-38L. No AAF flight test substantiates the Lockheed claims for anything above 414+ mph with combat load out. I'm not saying the L could Not exceed 414 with the final engine/cooling capability - but the fat P-38 wing and overall cumulative parasite drag caused a signifcant onset Mach well short of similar drag rise speeds in a P-51.

[hazmatt]

There were six fighter Aces in 479th. Of the 6 (Zemke, Jeffrey, Gleason, Olds, Candelaria and Creighton) ONLY Olds managed to get five in the P-38 in four plus months of operations.

If you read Olds book he mentions that he was not fond of whoever the leader was in the beginning when they were flying 38s. If I recall correctly he didn't believe that he was aggressive enough. I don't have my book handy or I would be able to give you the name.

[mikeWe9a]

I realise this is a three-month reply to a thread that started in 2000(!), but it jogged something within me. One of the fascinating things about Aces High and Air Warrior is that they can trace their lineage back to the really early days of the public internet, and I remember reading the message in the OP's post ages ago.
Oh yeah, here it is - another bunch of posts from Usenet:
https://yarchive.net/mil/cdb.html

It was a chap called CDB100620. The thing is that if you google "CDB100620 p-38" even today there are people on the internet who quote him, but he was at best a well-informed impersonator:

"Those of us who have written CDB in private were convinced that he was Elliott Dent of the 7th Fighter Squadron, 49th Fighter Group. Dent was the only pilot in the 7th with 6 confirmed kills. CDB signed his e-mail "E.D." I began my messages to him with "Dear Elliott". I was never corrected and certainly led to believe that I was, indeed, writing to Mr. Dent.

Now here's the caveat........

Elliott Dent died on August 28th, 1993."

As another belated reply (but nearly the 15+ years that resurrected this thread), I would like to correct something.  I indeed looked up CBD100620 as you suggested, and found in the first link a post in the old usenet archive from 1996, where he specifically stated that Elliot Dent was in fact his father-in-law.  https://yarchive.net/mil/p38.html - see the first paragraph, and note that he also states that his father in law did in fact post once while visiting, which may have been from that account.  This may have been part of the confusion (and who knows - perhaps his first name WAS Elliot as well).  I vaguely recall some of those usenet names and conversations from the mid 90's - my how time has flown.

Mike

[drgondog]

If you read Olds book he mentions that he was not fond of whoever the leader was in the beginning when they were flying 38s. If I recall correctly he didn't believe that he was aggressive enough. I don't have my book handy or I would be able to give you the name.

Col Kyle Riddle - down in Aug 44, evaded and returned to take over after Zemke wen down in T-storm. My father was offered the group when he was Deputy Gp CO of 355th FG but had to stay on after his 300 hour tour and he wanted to go home for a rest.

The 479th flourished under Zemke's leadership.

[Krupinski]

Another bump of this ancient thread, but since you guys speak of the 479th I thought it would be interesting to mention that the 479th P38s likely operated with 150 octane fuel. This would have allowed them to use 65-75 inches manifold over the standard 60 inches, giving the P38 a 20-25mph speed boost at max power.

From the page below, the 479th operated at Station 377 Wattisham, England from 15 May 1944 - 23 November 1945. They converted from P38s to P51s in the time period between October-December 1944.

Now in the second document, you see 150 octane fuel deliveries starting June 10th, 1944 to Station 377 (Wattisham), at least 4 months before their conversion to P51s began. Meaning they probably had 4-6 month operating time with P38s while being supplied with 150 octane fuel.

Anyways yeah I just thought this was interesting, since many people believe P38s were only tested for 150 octane use and never used in combat with it.

[drgondog]

I haven't seen any data re: 150 octane fuel in the J-15. That said, one way of the other, the Late block J-15s that populated the 479th had largely resolved cockpit heating, Intercooler/oil cooler and Turbo issues which had limited P-38 Allisons to 60". Additionally, and critical to the discussion, was that the Cruise settings of high boost/low RPM per Allison/Lockheed practice (vs VIII ATS) resolved the Turbo 'go bang' problems when spooling up from low boost in an emergency.

To be clear, the extra boost permitted by the 150 octane simply made the Potential predicted, and occasionally validated by flight test, performance of top speed and ROC. The possibility of raising top speed by 15mph+ really meant getting To the ~ 420mph at 25K presented by Lockheed for the -89/-91 V-1710 at 1600 Hp. The downside of the 150 octane application is that it probably reduced FTH for the 1600 Hp to several 1000 feet Lower.

The last mixed P-38/P-51 mission flown by 479th was September 28th, 1944.

[Brooke]

I wish they put the P-38K into production. 

[drgondog]

The P-38K as tested, with different gear ratio, slightly larger prop was slightly superior to P-38J in climb.

The 'P-38K' that Kelsey (and Bodie) raved about, never got past being sent to Rolls-Royce for an installation of Merlin trial before 8th AF and Materiel Command killed it in June/July 1944.There was more demand for Packard Merlins than supply and NAA had Number 1 priority for P-51B/C/D/K and then H.

So there were no firm decisions even regarding configuration - i.e two stage V-1650, redesign intercooler/radiator, scrap GE turbo - or retain Turbo slightly modify the radiator/intercooler. In either case the heavier Merlin required either ballast or change in wing location to account for CG change.

In any case, a 'production' P-38K as described would not have been in serial production intil late 1945.

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

The P-38K was tested in April 1943. It could have reached production in October 1943. Further, the Hamilton Standard High Activity propellers were not "slightly larger", they were considerably larger (13'-6"), large enough to require them to be raised significantly, creating the need to an entirely new cowl (even compared to the J/L cowl), and more efficient. They were also far more reliable, and reduced the load on the electrical system considerably.  They not only increased the climb rate, but also acceleration, as well as reducing fuel consumption. It is also reasonable to conclude that if equipped with the Hamilton Standard High Activity paddle prop, the P-38 would have also be upgraded to the four blade version as other aircraft were. One of the greatest handicaps faced by the P-38 was the inability of the Curtiss Electric propellers to harness the horsepower of even the earlier G model engines with any real efficiency.

Lockheed engineering studies found ZERO advantage in the proposed installation of the Merlin 1650 as compared to the Allison V-1710 with the GE turbocharger. It was heavier, burned more fuel, and made less power at every altitude. It was also larger. The installation would have required an entirely new engine fuselage. It would have resulted in reduced performance in every category. The only even marginal reason to install Merlins would be to eliminated the turbochargers and intercoolers, and that would merely cost power. In some forty years of research on the P-38, I have never seen any documentation of an actual attempt by anyone to install Merlin engines in a P-38 airframe. Neither of the P-38K prototypes, the first, based on what was believed to be an F model (the one seen in pictures), or the one based on a prototype J model, were known to survive, nor were known to be subjected to an attempt to install Merlins. The idea that either one would have been shipped to Britain to have Rolls Royce install Merlins is quite odd. Sipping prototypes to Britain, when there were a few thousand aircraft already there, would be quite odd.

Actually, in May/June 1944, Material Command actually requested the P-38K, or a similar version (it would have been the P-38L, up-fitted to a four blde version of the Hamilton Stanard prop) be put into production.

[Oldman731]

The P-38K was tested in April 1943.

\


Good lord, Hilts is back.  Dude!

- oldman

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

\


Good lord, Hilts is back.  Dude!

- oldman

Rumors of my demise were greatly exaggerated. Cancer did not get me.

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Another bump of this ancient thread, but since you guys speak of the 479th I thought it would be interesting to mention that the 479th P38s likely operated with 150 octane fuel. This would have allowed them to use 65-75 inches manifold over the standard 60 inches, giving the P38 a 20-25mph speed boost at max power.

From the page below, the 479th operated at Station 377 Wattisham, England from 15 May 1944 - 23 November 1945. They converted from P38s to P51s in the time period between October-December 1944.

Now in the second document, you see 150 octane fuel deliveries starting June 10th, 1944 to Station 377 (Wattisham), at least 4 months before their conversion to P51s began. Meaning they probably had 4-6 month operating time with P38s while being supplied with 150 octane fuel.

Anyways yeah I just thought this was interesting, since many people believe P38s were only tested for 150 octane use and never used in combat with it.

(Image removed from quote.)
(Image removed from quote.)

Thanks.

The claims that the P-38 was never operated above 60"-64" of MAP in combat are almost completely without merit. Considering that multiple P-38 test pilots toured the theaters of operation, and they had access to testing that showed the Allison was tested for hours at up to 80" of MAP, and over 3200 RPM, there's little doubt that they were rigged for it in the field, especially when 150 octane was available. The low top speeds shown for the J and L model DO NOT show the WEP settings in use.