Author Topic: LW jabo...a new idea  (Read 1368 times)

Offline buscaglia

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LW jabo...a new idea
« on: August 31, 2001, 11:29:00 PM »
About a good jabo ride for axis pilots, good enough to survive in MA.

I saw that many people were suggesting planes with good topspeed or great guns.

But maybe.. You may want a jabo with good chances of survival in an hostile enviroment and funny to fly instead..

This plane is:
- extremely sturdy
- extremely agile (same wing of the spit)
- good and flexible guns (2*12mm and 2*20mm)
- good payload  1*1,102lbs(500 kg) and 2*352lbs (160 kg); dedicated anti ship piercing bombs.

This is theReggiane 2002 Ariete (Ram)


Altough produced in small numbers, it had a very successfull and interesting operative history...It served for Regia Aeronautica, Luftwaffe and for the Allies too...some examples..

- In summer 1943 a squadron od Re2002s claimed 4 aerial victories (mostly fighters: p40s, a spit and a Catalina), severely damaged a big warship (HMS Nelson), sunk 1 transport ship and damaged 1 cruiser, claimed more than 20 other vehicles and smaller vessels sunk/destroyed.

- 1943/44 for the Allies, over the Greek islands, Re2002 demonstrated being very agile, even when still carrying eggs. A single re2002 was capable of shooting down 1 ju87 and disband the rest of its formation. After this it divebombed a landing craft, sinking it. Over Greece Re2002s scored more aerial victories, all during ground attack missions (2 arados floating planes, 1 me109 and 1 ju52 confirmed).

The Re2002 was probably one of few excellent axis turners in Europe, it had the same wing of the Re2005, wich was considered the "Axis Spit".
Having the re2002 into AH could be a good starting point to get the 2005 too in the future.

I think i ve said enough, if not too much, if anyone interested in further informations on the Re2002, just ask   :).
 

[ 09-01-2001: Message edited by: buscaglia ]

Offline buscaglia

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LW jabo...a new idea
« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2001, 07:38:00 AM »
p

Offline -ammo-

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LW jabo...a new idea
« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2001, 07:56:00 AM »
great idea! bring that thing to AH! It would appease the Axis guys and would give us USAAC guys something slow to shoot at :)

carries lots of ord too.
Commanding Officer, 56 Fighter Group
Retired USAF - 1988 - 2011

Offline hazed-

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LW jabo...a new idea
« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2001, 08:56:00 AM »
not that im against introducing italian bombers,and i dont want this to appear rude..so how can i say it ....


BOLLOCKS TO THAT PILE OF CACK!!  :D

hehe seriously, it would be great for the italian fans but ill stick with ANY LW ground attack varient HTC care to introduce  :)

Offline Westy MOL

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LW jabo...a new idea
« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2001, 09:13:00 AM »
I'm all for it. Always wanted to fly a Seversky or a P-35 and thats pretty darn close for many reason  ;)

 Westy

Offline eddiek

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LW jabo...a new idea
« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2001, 09:36:00 AM »
Hhhmmmmm.....I say go with it.

Time to introduce something other than a LW plane.  The Italians and Japanese had aircraft to fill those roles, and it is high time we saw more Japanese/Italian aircraft IMO.
The LW has 4 models of the 109, 4 models of the 190, and they can't find a jabo plane that does what they want.  
Seems to me the Axis needs to look into what Japan and Italy offered.  We have enough LW planes as it is.
And before you start about the "we just want what the Allies had" and begin a tirade about the load carrying abilities of the P-47/P-38/P-51/F4U/F6F, remember that all are primarily fighters that can carry bombs and do it well.  If your LW ride won't do it as well, look at history and see if that was how it was.  Instead of a dedicated jabo plane, which you already have in the 190F8, maybe an ordnance change?  Use what you have.....we have to, why not you LW fans?

Offline buscaglia

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LW jabo...a new idea
« Reply #6 on: September 01, 2001, 08:30:00 PM »
Happy someone like it  :)...

Yeah!! give us Severeggiansky!! hehehe  :), yep about that Westy  :) ...
You probably already know...
 The Reggiane engineers were inspired by the american P35, when they built the Re2000 (the grandfather of the 2002), and still were when they worked on the 2002...But by that time they found also another source of inspiration..Another American plane i like a lot...to be more specific it was a Royal Navy's aircraft captured by the italians.. A Martlet (in other words-> an F4F Wildcat!). They especially looked at it to improve the sturdyness and of Re2002 structure and components.

Introducing Re2002 would be a great add for several scenarios and theaters..From Sicily and Tunisia to Eastern front and late war Balkans.

Also would be a very wise move, because by adding the Re2002 would be very easy to introduce any of this other aircrafts, as they all have the same wing and fuselage of re2002:

- Re2005, would be the grave of any LW whining, it turns like spit9 dives like a Mustang, has 3x20mm & 2x12.7, but no gondolas..Was used in Italy and in defence of Berlin by the LW.
- Re2001, its a better turning, slightly slower, C202...but its armed with two cannons...Can carry 1000 lbs anti-ship piercing bombs too of course
- Re2000, fighter and fighter-bomber, used in all Mediterranean Theaters and on the eastern front by Hungarians.

PS: Hazed, this WAS an LW plane, it was used against the partisans (  :( ) in France and Yugoslavia.
Also it was used on the eastern front by Hungarians (Hungarians also used the Re2000 previously).
It would be a good historical target for LWs too, as it was extensively used by the Allies of the Balcan air forces (Italian Cobelligerent airforce).

Offline Tac

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LW jabo...a new idea
« Reply #7 on: September 01, 2001, 08:49:00 PM »
me410?  ;)

Offline buscaglia

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LW jabo...a new idea
« Reply #8 on: September 02, 2001, 12:31:00 AM »
Mmmm, nope, Me410 will never be the uber jabo the axis pilots are searching for....

410 was a great plane (as heavy bomber-buster),but a poor ground attack aircraft..

Because:

1)It has liquid cooled inline engines, too much vulnerable for ground attack, 1 rifle round is enough for shut off  

2)Its powerfull supercharger gives it a fair top speed but only at high alt and when not carrying  any egg!(388mph at 22000 ft  same as 109G6)..At low altitudes its peformance drops down.

3) as any big size aircraft me 410 is not suited for 80/90° divebombing.

4) The side rear firing Mg131 turret guns (barbettes) were delicate maintenance pieces and were not easy to handle, compromising gunner accuracy. The myth of their lethality was probably related to a single eppisode: a capable 410 gunner killed a famous American Ace, Cap. James Morris, with this guns.


All in all, Me410 as ground attack aircraft will be just average, if modelled properly.
Mainly for its average performance at low alt and high vulnerability.

Btw would be a great heavy fighter, and probably also a good fast level bomber (->have a look at the data about Me 410A-1 Schnellbomber added at the end of the post)

I've found some proofs of its weaknesses in action...
...my main sources are.."Airwar Italy 1944-45" and "Ground support operations of the Luftwaffe". The first is a very exhaustive late-war history of axis airforces in italy.
In that campain the me410 was used as recce and ground attacker  by Stab/studmuffinr.122...
The story of this unit, coming out of flightlogs and losses reports, is a  dramatic story...high losses, poor results...
The Me410 was ok when used as recce; but for ground attack missions, they considered it a coffin ...Too big and too slow: altough having a better handling than bf110s and 210s, it still was unable to outrun or otturn the allied fighters....The situation was worsened having gunners reporting the inaccuracy of the barbetted rear guns, especially when not manned by veteran experienced weapon system operators.
All of this could be exemplified by the description of one of the many 1944 studmuffinr.122 losses: over the Adriatic sea a single 410 was spotted by two lower spitfire 9s. The pilot decided to dive to deck in order to obtain enough extention from the interceptors. But one of the Spits persisted, managing to keep the german in visual contact, after some minutes of deck chase all the E was gone, and the faster spit started closing...Still the closing speed was slow, the gunner started frantically firing long bursts, but never managed damaging the spit....few seconds later the me410 was destroyed, killing both pilot and gunner.    
Finally it was decided that the losses were too high in ground attack missions, mainly because the plane wasnt able to survive  enemy fighter encounters, but also for its fragility and operative limits.studmuffinr 122 relegated its Me410s to strat. recce only.
In the same period and theather FW190F-8s were capable of going on with ground attack missions.

The main operative problems w/410 used for that job were that it was unsuited for 80/90° divebombing and thus had to come on target lower and evaded at slower speeds...410 ended its attacks lower and slower than the 190s, in this situation an enemy fighter bounce was something very close to a death sentence.
 Ah, last but not least: its engines were extremely vulnerable! Even 1 single rifle-caliber round was enough to kill 1 of its DB603A inline liquid cooled engines..
And this is VERY BAD   :( for a ground attack aircraft...  
Finally, the Daimler-Benz 603A, was very powerfull...But it was also very unrelyable...
This was the reason Messershmitt decided to not install it on his single engine series...Using it for a twin engined project instead, where you can rely on the other engine...But the 410 was not easy to fly with only one engine running...i ve discovered 2 me410s lost after engine failures in Italy in a 2 years operative period (in the same period no FW190s was lost for the same reason).

Me410 as a level bomber....
Messerschmitt Me 410A-1 Schnellbomber version

The first Me 410A-1 Schnellbomber (fast bomber) was delivered to the Luftwaffe in January 1943 with a fixed forward-firing armament of 2 × 20 mm MG 151/20 cannon and 2 × 0.312 in (7,92 mm) MG 17 machine guns, a defensive armament of 2 × 0.51 in (13 mm) MG 131 trainable rearward-firing machine guns in two remotely controlled barbettes on the sides of the fuselage immediately to the rear of the wing trailing edges, and provision for 2,205 lb (1.000 kg) of disposable stores in a weapons bay located in the lower part of the forward fuselage: this bay could carry 1 × 2,205 lb (1.000 kg) SC-1000 or SD-1000 bomb, or 2 × 1,102 lb (500 kg) SC-500 bombs, or 8 × 110 lb (50 kg) SC-50 bombs; the type could also be fitted under the wing roots with tandem pairs of Aussen-ETC racks for the carriage of an additional 4 × 110 lb (50 kg) SC-50 bombs. The bombs were aimed with the aid of a Stuvi 5B dive-bombing sight.

[ 09-02-2001: Message edited by: buscaglia ]

Offline hazed-

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LW jabo...a new idea
« Reply #9 on: September 02, 2001, 08:33:00 AM »
apparently the pilots who flew the Me410 complained that it was extremely difficult to escape when going down.and was prone to cockpit fires! which must have been an unnerving combination.

Offline buscaglia

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LW jabo...a new idea
« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2001, 09:52:00 AM »
yep, i had read that too.. BuSc

Offline brady

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LW jabo...a new idea
« Reply #11 on: September 02, 2001, 09:57:00 AM »
Add it, add anything Italian, it is high time they got a new toy.

Offline Wilbus

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LW jabo...a new idea
« Reply #12 on: September 02, 2001, 09:58:00 AM »
I'm not planning on getting hit anyway so bring the 410  :D

That Italian thing sound nice too, bring it in + a better LW jabo  :)
Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson

Liberating Livestock since 1998, recently returned from a 5 year Sheep-care training camp.

Offline janjan

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LW jabo...a new idea
« Reply #13 on: September 03, 2001, 02:40:00 AM »
Uuh...there are A LOT of inline engined ground attack planes, Stuka, Il-2, Typhoon to mention couple...

Me-410 maybe not suitable for divebombing, but that is nothing to do with it's size - Ju88 and I think even He177 had divebombing capabilities (not sure).

Also divebombing and ground attack are not the same things nesessarily - 190s of SG's did not dive bomb and still were excellent ground attack planes.

Offline Animal

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LW jabo...a new idea
« Reply #14 on: September 03, 2001, 06:08:00 PM »
cool looking plane