Author Topic: Ki 84C and the Ho 105 30mm, 350 made (Read 1521 times)

brady · « **on:** November 26, 2001, 06:28:00 PM »

The ki 84 is of course one of the more likely Japanese ftr's slated for inclushion in AH. Out of the aprox. 3,500 total Ki 84 produced about 350 were ki 84C's. Now having said that, it seams reasionable to ask for it's inclushion in AH (we have the C Hog, 200 some odd produced).This ki 84 would have the following guns 2 20mm Ho-5 , and 2 30mm Ho 105, and 2 250Kg bombs.
The adtion of the heaver aramenent, in the ki 84 would help to Give the Japanese, a 30mm weapon, the only other possable aircraft types that, would likely be modeled, would be the ki 102, or the ki 45, 37mm and or 57mm cannons.

-=Silo=- · « **Reply #1 on:** November 26, 2001, 09:04:00 PM »

I am interested, where did you get the 350 number from? I am interested in learning more on the Ho-155 gun and how It was use with the Ki-84.

I have heard an estimated 200 ki-84s were equipped with the Ho-155, then I hear it was used in limited trials, now I hear 350.

JAAF plane armaments are always elusive when trying to nail down the real details

<S>

Sachs · « **Reply #2 on:** November 26, 2001, 09:43:00 PM »

Silo he would be the man that would know. He knows more about JP armament then the JP munitions minister

Mitsu · « **Reply #3 on:** November 26, 2001, 11:06:00 PM »

no.

Mitsu

Tony Williams · « **Reply #4 on:** November 27, 2001, 12:36:00 AM »

My understanding is that the Ho-155 saw little service.

Not wishing to cloud the issue, but there were two other Japanese 30mm aircraft guns which saw action (albeit even more limited than the Ho-155). These were the Navy's Type 2 and Type 5.

Needless to say all three guns were quite different designs firing different ammunition. Not for the Japanese the boredom of standardisation.....

Tony Williams
Author: "Rapid Fire: The development of automatic cannon, heavy machine guns and their ammunition for armies, navies and air forces"
Details on my military gun and ammunition website:
PLEASE NOTE CHANGE OF ADDRESS http://website.lineone.net/~a_g_williams/index.htm
Military gun and ammunition discussion forum: http://www.delphi.com/autogun/messages

brady · « **Reply #5 on:** November 27, 2001, 06:53:00 PM »

Hayate by Richard M. Bueschel, quotes a figure of 350 Ki 84 C's beeing produced on page 62. and sites thier aramenent as being as stated above, also Japanese Aircraft of the Pacific War by Rene J Francillon, sites it as being armend with this weapon.
It was as far as I can determine used for home defense being intened as an anti B 29 platform, howeaver it performed porely at the alititudes the B 29 operated at.

This is as far as I know the only aircraft produced in any sort of numbers and used operationaly that was equiped with this gun.
It is dificult to find info on Japanese ordance but it is out thier to be had if you look for it. Thanks to Tony we have an excelent sorce of data to turn to in his book. Anither source of data is the TM-1985 series of US defense department manuals on explosive ordance, if you do a serch on the internet you can find sorces for obtaining coppies of these manuals. I own a few and they are wonderfuly informatave, they contain cross sections and lots of data on all kinds of ordance used by all the warring powers in WW2.

TY for saying so AG but I only dabble in it

Mitsu, Would you care to elaberate? Why would you prefer the Ki 84B, or A?

hazed- · « **Reply #6 on:** November 27, 2001, 07:37:00 PM »

2x20mm not enough for ya's? hehe

to be honest 30mm is a great option for 190s and i can see why you'd want it but really, you'll use it a lot less once you realise with the furball type arena we seem to be in these days you hardly need that much firepower.
i have 30mm option for 190a8 but rarely use it.

Mitsu · « **Reply #7 on:** November 28, 2001, 03:03:00 AM »

Ki-84-Ic hasn't been mass-produced.

First, some Ki-84-Ic which had Ho-5 20mm cannon on nose, Ho-105 30mm cannon on wing, has been produced. But they were only trial manufacture.

Next, Japanese Ki-84 book says Nakajima produced Ki-84-Ic which had Ho-5 on nose, Ho-155 30mm cannon on wing. But only two of this Ki-84-Ic has been produced.

so Richard M. Bueschel was wrong.
I think that "350 Ki-84-Ic" which he said were Ki-84-Ib.

Mitsu

brady · « **Reply #8 on:** November 28, 2001, 06:34:00 PM »

Are you shure he was wrong Mitsu? Unfortunatly Bueschel's book is my only source for production figures other than francillon's book (which is vauge on this issue).I do not doubt your secenarity I just was wondering if we could find another source to verify this one way or the other. I will try and Contact Mr. Bueschel through his poublisher to ask how he arrived at this figure.

Mitsu do your sources indicate the ammo load out for the Hayate's guns for the various models?

-=Silo=- · « **Reply #9 on:** November 29, 2001, 11:57:00 AM »

Brady, I wouldn't be surprised if Bueschel may have some errors.

A while ago I was reserrching Ki-44 armament heavily. Francillion says Ki-44-II had 4x12.7mm, 2x12.7mm+2x37mm, 2x12.7mm+2x40mm, 4x20mm.
Of all those stated the general concensus was that there were 3 armament option available for the Ki-44.
---
Ki-44-IIa (2x 7.7mm + 2x 12.7mm)
Ki-44-IIb (2x 12.7mm + 2x 40mm)
Ki-44-IIc (4x 12.7mm)
---
The 37mm cannon couldnt even fit in the wing of the Ki44 because of the feed drum.
The 4x20mm Ho-3 armament was most likely mis reported/treanslated. It should read Ho-103 "machine cannon", not Ho-3 cannon (or somthing to that effect). Basically, because the IJA used those HE machine gun rounds, the confusion is understandable.

This is why I ask around and keep "notes" of things regarding IJ planes. There always seems to be two to three different anwswers to the same question

Somethings are easier to sort out that others though.

<S>

Mitsu · « **Reply #10 on:** November 29, 2001, 03:04:00 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by brady:
Mitsu do your sources indicate the ammo load out for the Hayate's guns for the various models?

Ki-84-Ia:
Two Ho-103 12.7mm Machine Guns on Nose (350rpg)
Two Ho-5 20mm Cannons on Wing (150rpg)
250kg x2 Bombs

Ki-84-Ib:
Two Ho-5 20mm Cannons on Nose (??? rpg)
Two Ho-5 20mm Cannons on Wing (??? rpg)

Ki-84-Ic:
Two Ho-5 20mm Cannons on Nose (??? rpg)
Two Ho-105 30mm Cannons on Wing (??? rpg)
or
Two Ho-5 20mm Cannons on Nose (??? rpg)
Two Ho-155 30mm Cannons on Wing (??? rpg)

Source:
1) Maru Mechanic of World Aircraft, The Army Type 4 Fighter "Hayate".
2) BUNRIN DO Famous Airplanes of The Wolrd, Army Type 4 Fighter "Hayate".

Mitsu

brady · « **Reply #11 on:** November 29, 2001, 07:21:00 PM »

Yes Silo I have noticed the same thing it is hard to get reliable info on Japanese aircraft in the states, cross checking is important thats for shure. I am always looking to expand my libary and for the past few years I have tryed to focus on Japanese and Italian equipment, it is hard to come by other than in general reference works. that is why i started to dig through the Local military Museum archive for info, found the source I mention earler to you on the TM 1985 series, unfortunatly the only ordance that seams to absent from the series is the Ho 105 and Ho 155 30mm ammo. I did get the prevelage of handeling some Japanese weapons and aircraft cannons, they also have and extensive ammo and mortar colection including almost all the Japanese mortars from WW2 as well as some field guns in excelent condition. I think this is why I tend to spend more time reading about these two countries nowdays as aposed to my earler readings on german and Soviet equipment, as well as US and Britush, it is more chalenging

.The only thing that seams even harder to find info on is French equipment.

Mitsu Ty for the info

Tony Williams · « **Reply #12 on:** November 30, 2001, 01:50:00 AM »

I have spent some time researching the "Ho-105/Ho-155" question, including examining a specimen weapon and corresponding with those who have examined original documentation.

The conclusion is that the term "Ho-105" is a mistake made at some time and copied ever since. The only Army 30mm weapons to see service were the Ho-155 I and Ho-155 II, as I described in detail in a recent post.

Unless someone can find a gun with "Ho-105" stamped on it, the evidence seems conclusive.

Tony Williams
Author: "Rapid Fire: The development of automatic cannon, heavy machine guns and their ammunition for armies, navies and air forces"
Details on my military gun and ammunition website:
NOTE NEW ADDRESS http://website.lineone.net/~a_g_williams
Gun and ammunition discussions at: http://www.delphi.com/autogun/messages

Mitsu · « **Reply #13 on:** November 30, 2001, 02:19:00 AM »

Tony, I think so too.
Also there is no information about Ho-105 Cannon in Japan.

Thanks.

Mitsu

brady · « **Reply #14 on:** November 30, 2001, 07:21:00 PM »

Yes Tony TY very much I have been wondering about it a long time now