WWII Soviet carbine goes to the range

[Coshy]

My fiancee bought me a 1945 M44 (Soviet Carbine) for Christmas last year and while I have shot it, I haven't had a chance to work much on accuracy, until today. I thought you all might like to see what a 64 year old gun and 29 year old ammo can do. The common wisdom is to shoot the M44 with the bayonet extended, but after experimenting a bit, I found mine shot consistently high regardless of bayonet position. It did shoot to the right (about 4 inches) with the bayonet extended and 4 inches to the left with the bayonet folded back. I decided to 'zero' it with the bayonet folded back for now. All these groups were shot with the bayonet folded back and at 75-80 yard targets.

This is some polish silver tipped ammo given to me by a generous young man I met at the range today. It is also my best 5 shot group of the day. I fired about a total of 100 rounds.


This is a 4 shot group. I knew I screwed up the flier as soon as I pulled the trigger. This was 1980 Bulgarian surplus ammo.


This was typical once I relaxed and figured out how the gun liked to be held and fired. I'm seeing a bit of vertical movement, which if I am remembering correctly means I need to work on my breathing a bit. This also was 1980 Bulgarian surplus ammo.


I'm pleased with the results, although my shoulder HURTS! But I'm grinning through the pain.

[wrag]

CORROSIVE primers!

They leave mineral salts that corrode the barrel!

Boiling water poured from the chamber to the muzzle IIRC?

Or there is one cleaner that works can't remember the name though.

Perhaps do a look up on the net for it?

[Coshy]

They do have corrosive primers. There are also several witches brews and concoctions people claim "have" to be poured down the barrel. Water, Ammonia, Ammonia and water, gun oil and I'm sure there are some ritual words that are supposed to be spoken too.

All ya need is any kind of normal, everyday solvent. Hoppes #9 works just fine.

[wrag]

They do have corrosive primers. There are also several witches brews and concoctions people claim "have" to be poured down the barrel. Water, Ammonia, Ammonia and water, gun oil and I'm sure there are some ritual words that are supposed to be spoken too.

All ya need is any kind of normal, everyday solvent. Hoppes #9 works just fine.

You sure?

IIRC that isn't true?

Did a lookup of solvents for corrosive primers and only one showed up?

[Coshy]

You sure?

IIRC that isn't true?

Did a lookup of solvents for corrosive primers and only one showed up?

I'm positive. This has been discussed to death on 7.62x54r.net, arguably the premier online resource for all things Mosin-Nagant. The administrator, and Mosin collector posts as 7.62x54r, see his response in this thread.

[Tarmac]

you put 100 rounds through an M44?  I think I put about 3 through my buddy's before I said "f this thing, maybe in the winter when I've got a few layers of clothing on"

You have a butt pad or anything?  If not I admire your pain tolerance.

[Nefarious]

I fired about a total of 100 rounds.

We're gonna have to amputate.

[Maverick]

You need a water based cleaner to get the corrosive salts out of the gun. A quick and easy way to do that is to use black powder cleaning solutions. (pretty much like dish soap and water) Less mess than making up your own but you need HOT water for the rinse. Pour the hot water (best from a tea kettle just after it starts to boil hard) through the barrel and action to get it good and hot. Use the entire kettle of water. The water then evaporates without rusting the metal. Then a light cleaning with regular gun cleaning stuff like Hoppes and a coating of oil to protect the metal.

[Nemisis]

I would just say practice, get new ammo if possible, and buy a recoil pad for your shoulder. If you start to hate the gun then I will buy it .

[crazyivan]

The second picture shows a good grouping.

[Nemisis]

Good is not great and he wants outstanding .

[SkyRock]

The second picture shows a good grouping.

the second pic shows an arrant shot...could have been the one that counted...grouping is more important closer to the heart or target. 

[Coshy]

It was 105 rounds, 5 20 round boxes plus the 5 polish silver tipped rounds the guy at the range gave me. No shoulder pad, I was wearing a Dickie's T-shirt. No bruising, but my shoulder is a bit tender. I do plan on finding a shoulder pad, but haven't had the time to go looking for one that won't add too much length to the stock.

From a 65 year old gun I am extremely pleased with the way its shooting. At this point I'm relatively certain the blame for any bad groups can be strictly placed on the shooters shoulders. Even if those shoulders are a bit tender.

While I appreciate and share the concern over cleaning out the salts from the primer, I am really wondering where these alchemical concoctions are coming from. These were battle rifles. The russian oil can (issued with the various Mosin-Nagant models) had 2 compartments, 1 for gun oil and another for an alkali solution. There was no hot water, much less a tea kettle full. While a full tea kettle of hot water would certainly wash the salts away, its not the best, or simplest, or easiest modern solution. Soviet infantry had no complex chemical solutions during the early service life of the Mosin-Nagant, in most cases all that was available was just a simple soda and water solution. Certainly nothing coming close to the readily available solvents we have today. Then there is the story of soldiers urinating down the barrel thinking the ammonia in their urine would neutralize the salts. While this may have happened, and appeared to be effective, it was the volume of liquid, which washed the salts away, not the chemical content which was the key factor. There was a great thread on 7.62x54r.net that delved into this very question. This thread contains excerpts from both the War Departments manual and a book titled The Soviet Mosin-Nagant Manual.

Any modern commercially available cleaning solvent will do the job if the rifle is cleaned within a reasonable time frame.

The flier on the second pic would have been 6 or 8 inches high at 100 yards (5 inches high at 75 yds). If I were shooting center mass at a standing man sized target that one would have hit in the neck/shoulder region. More practice is in order to get a more consistent trigger pull and better breath control. I think, however, I'll use my 10/22 for that. 

[SkyRock]

It was 105 rounds, 5 20 round boxes plus the 5 polish silver tipped rounds the guy at the range gave me. No shoulder pad, I was wearing a Dickie's T-shirt. No bruising, but my shoulder is a bit tender. I do plan on finding a shoulder pad, but haven't had the time to go looking for one that won't add too much length to the stock.

From a 65 year old gun I am extremely pleased with the way its shooting. At this point I'm relatively certain the blame for any bad groups can be strictly placed on the shooters shoulders. Even if those shoulders are a bit tender.

While I appreciate and share the concern over cleaning out the salts from the primer, I am really wondering where these alchemical concoctions are coming from. These were battle rifles. The russian oil can (issued with the various Mosin-Nagant models) had 2 compartments, 1 for gun oil and another for an alkali solution. There was no hot water, much less a tea kettle full. While a full tea kettle of hot water would certainly wash the salts away, its not the best, or simplest, or easiest modern solution. Soviet infantry had no complex chemical solutions during the early service life of the Mosin-Nagant, in most cases all that was available was just a simple soda and water solution. Certainly nothing coming close to the readily available solvents we have today. Then there is the story of soldiers urinating down the barrel thinking the ammonia in their urine would neutralize the salts. While this may have happened, and appeared to be effective, it was the volume of liquid, which washed the salts away, not the chemical content which was the key factor. There was a great thread on 7.62x54r.net that delved into this very question. This thread contains excerpts from both the War Departments manual and a book titled The Soviet Mosin-Nagant Manual.

Any modern commercially available cleaning solvent will do the job if the rifle is cleaned within a reasonable time frame.

The flier on the second pic would have been 6 or 8 inches high at 100 yards (5 inches high at 75 yds). If I were shooting center mass at a standing man sized target that one would have hit in the neck/shoulder region. More practice is in order to get a more consistent trigger pull and better breath control. I think, however, I'll use my 10/22 for that. 

Didn't mean to imply it wasn't kill shots, just that grouping is better....yup, now that I look at it, that high shot in the second pic would have hit the jugular on the right side of the neck, below the collar bone!  hee hee

[Widewing]

Don't expect tight groups from any M44 carbine. Typically, using a sandbag rest, it will average groupings between 3.5" and 4.5" at 100 yards. This assumes decent ammo is being fired. Old surplus ammo will often result in more fliers. Nonetheless, it was/is perfectly adequate for its intended use.


My regards,

Widewing