Request for AP ammo for the MG151/20 cannon

[Raubvogel]

I think the main gripe here is this:

1) the Hispano has superior penetrating power. This is not in debate. This makes it more useful against ground targets. It is modeled as such in AH.

2) The MG151/20 with the Mine shell is superior in chemical energy. This would make it more damaging against air targets. This is NOT modeled in AH.


p.s. Jugs bouncing rounds off the road into the bottom of vehicles? maybe Volkswagens

[This message has been edited by Raubvogel (edited 03-13-2001).]

[Fishu]

 

Originally posted by Raubvogel:
I think the main gripe here is this:

1) the Hispano has superior penetrating power. This is not in debate. This makes it more useful against ground targets. It is modeled as such in AH.

2) The MG151/20 with the Mine shell is superior in chemical energy. This would make it more damaging against air targets. This is NOT modeled in AH.


p.s. Jugs bouncing rounds off the road into the bottom of vehicles? maybe Volkswagens  

I still do doubt Hispanos capability of being having that good tank killer capability.
I don't believe in such crap as Hispanos killing PZ-IVh on a pass or two frequently.
Definately not blow it up.
Most crap comes from low 12 attacks or side attacks..  when even 37mm anti-tank gun has problems penetrating the front from 300 yards ahead, not to talk about plane strafing it from 12 ahead from 800 to 150 yards and boom.

[Vermillion]

Ammo, I tried to download your file but got a "bad file" error. Could you email it to me?

Tony, I have recently been looking at some photocopies of the US Army's manuals of the different guns/ammunition of the combatants of WWII, in this case the Japanese (thanks Brady) TM 9-1985-5.  Any ideas where I can order a copy of this document? I found one company online that offers to make you photocopies, but they want $45 per manual (5 in all) and they're only photocopies. I did find one copy of TM 9-2200 which is the US aircraft gun and ammunition manual online for $25, which I will probably order today.

Any ideas where too look?

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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

[Tony Williams]

Vermillion - sorry, I'd like a copy of that myself!

Seeker - I know that P-47s did fire at the road in the hope that the bullets would bounce up and strike the underside of the tank, but I've never read about any case when it actually worked.  Consider this:  Maximum penetration of .5" Browning AP at normal ranges 15-20mm:  Striking angle after bouncing off the road maybe 30 degrees: effective penetration at this angle 5-10mm (or less because the bullet probably wouldn't strike point-first after hitting the road):  armour thickness under German medium tanks in 1944 around 25mm.  Result: German tank crew mildly irritated by noise like hailstorm!

There has been a GREAT deal written about the difference between tanks claimed destroyed by P-47 and Typhoon units and the wrecks found on the ground.  It works out at about a 10:1 claim:kill ratio.

Tony Williams
Author: "Rapid Fire: The development of automatic cannon, heavy machine guns and their ammunition for armies, navies and air forces"
Details on my military gun and ammunition website: http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~autogun/index.htm

[Wilbus]

I don't doubt that the Hispano was better against Armor, it had a higher speed and (I am not sure) and greater mass, although not much.
However, that a Hispano round penetrates 50-80mm of Armor on a WW2 tank is totally BS.
The steal that tanks use is treated and therefor it is much stronger and more durable then a normal steal can, so you
can't in anyway compare it to shoot at a tin can with a hand gun.

The Hispanos should be better, yes. But they should NOT kill a Panzer MK 4 HO (80mm treatet armor) where even some Allied Tanks guns had trouble.

I don't want the MG151 better, but the Hispano should be turned down against armor, it shouldn't kill panzers.

 



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Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson
III/JG5 Eismeer

[Naudet]

Do we really have the mineshell for the MG151??

From my experience in A2A combat we dont have it.
The mineshell was one of the most effective shells vs. airplanes (it will not do any harm to a panzer), due their their vulneralbe parts liek control cabels, radiators etc..
But the MG131 seems to do much more dmg to an enemy plane than the MG151. I have tried to kill planes with MG151 only, its pretty close to hopeless, if u compare it to any other 20mm cannon in the game.
And i think both the hispanoes and the 20mms on the hog are a bit overpowered atm. Especially as they seem to have more effect on tanks than a 30 mm MK108 shell.
And now dont tell me a 330g shell at least as much power as a 20 mm Hispano round.

[Vermillion]

Naudet, what you have is a simulated "mixed" ammunition belt, combined into a single ammunition type. Its this way for all the guns in AH.

Empirical evidence from testing within the game indicates that the MG151/20 has mine shell ammunition in approximately 1 in 3 rounds of ammunition. Which is how it was historically used in WWII.

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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

[Vermillion]

Tony, look here for that info I mentioned.
 http://www.military-info.com/MPHOTO/P108.htm

I would love to see some of this info, but for just photocopies the prices seem a bit extreme to me.

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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

[GRUNHERZ]

What evidence verm?, even then Hispanos had 50/50 AP HE but every single round in AH has both of them, it doesnt take account of the ratio. Thats all I want equal treatment between the guns because right now its absolute roadkill. Hispano in AH should have better armor penetration than 151, as it had faster and heavier shell, however this test 100% shows that MG151 has absolutely no AP modeling whatsoever in AH. Plus no modeling of mineshell since I have often hosed Bombers and fiters with MG151 fire and they had no damage, if there was even 1/3 mineshells as u say they should be destroyed as mineshell had way more HE effect on planes than even the best Hispano round.
And we all know how few hits are required to kill with Hispanos.

Here is my suggestion for your consideration.

Would you think it fair balance if Hispano has superior ballistics and range and better AP performance , while MG151 gets some AP capability and Mineshells- thus leaving it with lesser balistics, superior HE and inferior AP?

[This message has been edited by GRUNHERZ (edited 03-13-2001).]

[SageFIN]

Fellows, we now need someone to come up with the following type of data:

1) The amount of HE in a hispano HE-shell and a mine shell and thus also the respective chemical (explosive) energy of those rounds.

2) The kinetic energy of both rounds. (These have been thrown around the BBS for n times so they are there   ).

3) Some sort of formula for the effect of those two forces on the structure of an airplane.

What I am getting to here is that we should establish how much the explosive energy compensates for the lack of kinetic energy. If for examples, it would be found out that explosive energy has a tenfold effect compared with kinetic energy, we would have a whole new situation in our hands. These things are however difficult to qualify but perhaps we could try? If we get this one straight, we can blabber on about ammo belts and other more irrelevant stuff. This is what matters most.

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SageFIN

"I think IŽll believe in Gosh instead of God.  If you donŽt
 believe in Gosh too, youŽll be darned to heck."
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[Jigster]

For the millionth time, AP/HE/M-G is already modeled.

The AP shell has no real penetration vs the Panzer because it's penetration values aren't high enough. It's a lighter round with less kinetic energy. Then again from most angles the Hispano shouldn't either. And that's my biggest gripe.

Don't think of the 1/3 as a ratio...it doesn't work that way. You get the best characterisitc of each round type.

I'd assume you get the muzzle velocity, chemical explosive content of the Mine shell, and the shell mass of the AP round. The mine shell's destructive power is probably reduced somewhat to coincide with a HE shell mixed inbetween. Even with these capabilites it is no where as lethal as the combined kinetic energy of the Hispano which is unbelievebly higher then the Mauser, and it's HE content, that isn't all that much less then the mine shell, a rather off-balancing situation...I find the MG 151 to be a lot more representative of a 20mm round in it's effects on air planes.

Hope you guys get what you want, and the ammo load it spilt into one single type, cause then you'll really start whining. Right now your carry a representation of 3X the historical ammo load in the MG 151. The Hispano is carry 2X using the combined method.

[Vermillion]

SageFin, what you describe has been done, over and over, and can be found in past threads.

Grunherz, {Heavily Edited } Learn a little bit about science and engineering, and then come back and talk about the issue. {Heavily Edited}


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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 03-13-2001).]

[juzz]

What did the IJN put in their Type 99-2 cannon? They do almost as much damage as the Hispano, yet their kinetic energy and velocity are the lowest of all 20mm in AH(bar MG FF).

What did the Soviets use in the ShVAK/B-20? They do the same damage as the MG 151/20.

[Sturm]

If you want I can post the data for the A/C loadouts for the MG-131 and 151.  I have a book that lists what werew loaded and what porportion of ammo was used.  I will post the info later tonight.  Hail Naudet I have moved to here and booted FA, send me an email sometime, I have a new address.

[Fishu]

 

Originally posted by Vermillion:
SageFin, what you describe has been done, over and over, and can be found in past threads.

Grunherz, once again your spewing senseless roadkill that has no basis in reality. This issue has been went over time and again, with people like Wells, Hooligan, Juzz,  Myself and others providing in depth historical facts, in game testing, and in depth calculations to prove what is going on. All we hear from you is "ITS NOT FAIR, I DON'T LIKE IT SO ITS GOTTA BE BROKE !!!" like a screaming whining little spoiled brat.  Learn a little bit about science and engineering, and then come back and talk about the issue. Until then just shut up.

...and it will be done until someone wakes up and downtunes Hispanos AT capability.
Its pure bull that you can kill tank from ahead with Hispanos, when not even tank guns werent necessarily able to do that.
Hispano is better in power than MG151/20, but also more unreliable (which isn't modelled, of course), but yet I have seen no proofs of it being that much better or actually killing half dozen tanks in a flight.

So theres clear unbalancing maker which makes tankers life a pure hell with these '200' chogs.