Request for AP ammo for the MG151/20 cannon

[LLv34_Camouflage]

Hi!

We did some testing if the german mauser weapons had AP ammo in the FW 190 F-8, the ground attack variant. Here's how we tested this in AH H2H:


 

Pic 1: After multiple unsuccesful (lots of hits, no damage) air to ground gunnery passes on a panzer, we rolled next to it to get better hits.  Unfortunately, when rolling gear up next to the panzer, you had to go very close to hit it.  Your own cannon rounds then exploded your plane.  This suggests the rounds are HE, along with the fact that the pnzr didn't receive any damage.


 
 


Pics 2 and 3: We then rolled our F-8's next to the panzer and collapsed our gear.  This enabled us to hit the panzer from a bit further away.  In both pictures the distance is 40 yards.  Over 1000 MG151 20mm cannon hits to the rear of the pnzr failed to do any damage to the tank.

Conclusions:  The MG151 20mm cannon in AH does not have AP ammo.  

Here is a translation from an ammunition manual, which LLv34_Flanker aka DB603 kindly translated from finnish.  The MG151/20 cannon had four types of AP rounds, and one type of practise AP round.

Could we have these ammo types modelled in AH for the 20mm MG151/20 cannon?  


 

MG151/20 20mm Cannon Ammunition

20mm AP ammo

Weight of bullet is 115g and Vo=705m/s.Total weight with shell is 205g.Primary use for A/A combat and against ground targets.Penetrates 13mm of armor(120kg/mm2) at angle of 60’ from 100m.No explosive charge,only penetration effect.


20mm AP grenade

Weight of bullet 115g and total with shell 205g.Vo=705m/s.Primary use against armored or hardened ground targets(vehicles etc.).After penetrating minimum of 5mm armor explodes(4g of Nitropenta explosive) and spreads fragments.Penetrates 13mm of armor(150kg/mm2) at angle of 60’ from 100m.


20mm AP Incendiary (phospor)

Weight of bullet 115g and total weight with shell 202g.Vo=705m/s.Used in A/A and A/G against heavily armed targets(bombers,ground attack planes,tanks,trains etc.).To destroy the grenade it needs to penetrate minimum of 3-15mm armor or similar hardened structure depending on angle of impact. After penetration spreads the phospor that burns with high temperature damaging the target’s structure and ignintes any flammable liquids(fuel etc.). Penetrates normal(150kg/mm2) armor at angle of 90’/60’ 23mm/12mm from 100m.Penetrates surface tempered armor at angle of 90’/60’ 13mm/6mm from 100m.


20mm AP Incendiary(with electrontube filling)

Weight of bullet 117g and total weight with shell 207g.Used against merchant ships and light combat vessels.Penetrates at angle of 75’ 15mm of structural steel.Needs minimum of 4mm of structure to be penetrated before detonation can occur.Incendiary effect is achieved with an electrontube(with 6.2g of incendiary filling) that detonates.When several ammo of same type hit the target,continuous incediary effect is activated.


20mm AP (practise)

Weight 115g/205g with shell.Vo=705m/s.Penetration value small or none.Used only for practise shooting or operational test shooting.

Thanks!

Camo


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Camouflage
XO, Lentolaivue 34
 www.muodos.fi/LLv34

Brewster into AH!

"The really good pilots use their superior judgement to keep them out of situations
where they might be required to demonstrate their superior skill."

[Jochen]

If nothing else, HTC please modify Fw 190F-8 MG 151/20 cannon to fire AP rounds because that's what they did in real life too. Thanks!

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jochen Gefechtsverband Kowalewski

Units: I. and II./KG 51, II. and III./KG 76, NSGr 1, NSGr 2, NSGr 20.
Planes: Do 17Z, Ju 87D, Ju 88A, He 111H, Ar 234A, Me 410A, Me 262A, Fw 190A, Fw 190F, Fw 190G.

Sieg oder bolsevismus!

[juzz]

Testing? Is that what you call trying to cross a Focke Wulfe with a Panzer?!(see first pic)

Fortunately for the known world, none of the Focke Wulfe's "rounds" were able to "penetrate" the tough exterior of the Panzer and "detonate" inside...

Seriously: AP ammo would be good for the Fw 190F-8, along with more ordinance options too.

[This message has been edited by juzz (edited 03-12-2001).]

[Fishu]

...and with Hispano it's more than easy to kill panzer from varying distances and with MG151/20 you don't do anything from any distance.

[StSanta]

Very nice camo, very nice indeed.
I'll replicate the test with other guns, such as the ShVAKS and hispanos and see what happens.

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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"


"Live to pull, pull to live"

[GRUNHERZ]

Guys just fly the fargin chog its whats HTC wants anyway why the hell else would have they put such insignificant piece of toejam in the game. Man no wonder the 151/20 doesnt even have mineshells modeled.  Sheesh thx for the test- and unfoirtunatly the very dissapointing news, sorry HTC this really sucks for me as customer why do you only put the super combined ammo on the BS chog types, I love flying your game but this is just plain unfair. 1000rds from 40ft away and nothing when chog can kill panzer in 2 passes WHAT THE HELL IS THIS HTC SHOULD WE ALL JUST FLY CHOGS? no wonder the bombers must have super guns with godddam A-10 chogs flying around. sorry to all (especially HTC) who take this as offensive message but this crap has really pissed me off somehow special I dont know why but it just seems like a cummmulation of all the BS AH has in it. Again im sorry, but also very upset about this.

[LLv34_Camouflage]

 

Originally posted by StSanta:
I'll replicate the test with other guns, such as the ShVAKS and hispanos and see what happens.

That will be interesting.    Thanks Santa!

Camo

[Jigster]

I see no one has bothered comparing the PzIV's armor values to the MG 151/20's penetration values.

[Daff]

"Testing? Is that what you call trying to cross a Focke Wulfe with a Panzer?!(see first pic)"

Aha!..this explains the Pzkw109F we had in WB!.

Daff

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CO, 56th Fighter Group
 www.56thfightergroup.org
This is Yardstick, follow me"

[Karnak]

I, personally, would love to be able to choose my ammunition type.  I don't really see why it can't be selected.

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We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother

Bring the Spitfire F.MkXIVc to Aces High!!!

Sisu
-Karnak

[MANDOBLE]

Agree with Karnak, the hability to choose the ammunition type would be a MAJOR improvement to the game. And we already have this feature present, but only in the tanks.


[This message has been edited by MANDOBLE (edited 03-12-2001).]

[gatt]

Welcome to Aces Allied High. Seriously, this problem is well known. HTC never said anything about Spitfire MkV blowing up PzIV with only 2 Hispanos and about 20mm Mausers not being able to knock out even Flakpanzers (PzrIII chassis I guess).

You know? Hurricanes IID in North Africa were barely able to knock out PzIV with their 2x40mm. They mainly knocked out italian tin cans, PzII, PzIII and trucks.

Ehehe, during Africa Korps scenario I was really pissed off about it ...   Enjoy AH for what it is.

[This message has been edited by gatt (edited 03-12-2001).]

[Wingnut_0]

   

Originally posted by Jigster:
I see no one has bothered comparing the PzIV's armor values to the MG 151/20's penetration values.

Armor Detail
         front    Side   Rear   Top/Bottom
Hull      80mm@76° 30mm@90° 20mm@82° 10mm@0°
structure 80mm@80° 30mm@90° 20mm@79° 12mm@0-
Turret  50mm@80° 30mm@64° 30mm@75° 15mm@0-7°
Mantlet 50mm@60-90°


I cut off the last column on the structure..it should read 12mm@0-5 (degrees)
For some reason when I view the post the columns are all screwed up.

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Wingnut
Luftjagerkorps
   

The quality of the box matters little.  Success depends upon the man who sits in it  -  Baron Manfred von Richthofen

[This message has been edited by Wingnut_0 (edited 03-12-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Wingnut_0 (edited 03-12-2001).]

[Wilbus]

Actually, neither the Hispano nor the MG151's should be able to penetrate the armor of Panzer. the Velocity of the Hispano is about 250 F/s higher, that does a few more millimeters TOP.

However, this might be for gameplay since we don't have a JU87G or a Hurricane IID.

If Hispano can do it then MG151 should do it too, tired of seeing Hispanos kill a Panzer Head On Front Armor from 500 yards when an MG151 can't even kill it from 50 yards  

HTC, either make it possible for both to penetrate OR (better) take it away completely for the hispanos too.

 



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Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson
III/JG5 Eismeer

[DB603]

S!

 A little addition here.The 20mm API round COULD penetrate the rear of the panzer.The engine compartment doesn't have armor plates on it,but a hood.When entering the engine area the 20mm would for sure do some serious damage and stop the engine and even ignite the fuel.It should also be noted that the Vo is propably measured on a STATIC gun,not from a flying plane.Wouldn't the speed of the aircraft add some to the Vo?About the Hispano.It has been numerous times when a Spit or another HispanoWonder hits the tank with a short burst and BOOM!Why do the Allied have a super cannon and the Luftwaffles have to be happy with a piece of JUNK(at the moment)?Not even the 30mm do any harm...and it packs a serious punch.
 The armor values of the Ostwind are also a bit funny.A not so very well armored PzIII chassis with an OPEN TOP turret and U can't kill it,execpt with the KwK75/48L or Hispano or a well placed bomb...M3 is killable, and also the M16, with MG151/20 or Mk108.
This sim is in general a VERY good one,but some flaws like this kill some of the enjoyability...My 2 cents.




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DB603
3.Lentue
Lentolaivue 34