Author Topic: A luftwaffe question  (Read 742 times)

Offline DB603

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A luftwaffe question
« Reply #15 on: March 14, 2001, 02:31:00 AM »
S!

 About the trim issue.Bf109 had only elevator trim and the aileron trims were adjusted on ground after pilot's wishes.Some late war 109's had rudder trim(with the new rudder structure).
 Another urban legend..in 109 U don't PULL the lever back,but PUSH it forward to increase the throttle.Been in the real deal,so knowing what I am talking about.The case of pulling the lever was in Fiat G.50,one to mention.



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DB603
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Offline Naudet

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A luftwaffe question
« Reply #16 on: March 14, 2001, 04:48:00 AM »
R4M, i think ur are right the Fw190 suffers to strong changes in stability in AH.

In real life it must have been wonderful stable if u could handle it so easy without any incockpit aileron and rudder trim.

Offline Flitze

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A luftwaffe question
« Reply #17 on: March 14, 2001, 08:27:00 PM »
The AH developers did right to add trimming to the game. This increases the "workload" of a pilot, making flying these planes more interesting. And remember, they said it's not reality the way they did it, it's just an approach to bring it into the game. How do you want to model realistic trimming if not everyone is using rudder pedals but a keyboard for rudder control ?
Don't forget another detail: the 109, for example, had a wheel to lower or raise the flaps while the 190 had hydraulic flaps. Imagine a wheel beside your keyboard to be turned several times to bring your flaps into the position a single hit onto the keyboard does now. And this inmidst a hot combat...
Since I never flew a WWII aircraft and I never will, I can't tell you which impact trimming has/had in reality. But I've read something from pilots who flew those planes in WWII or thereafter. E.g. one P47 pilot assumed that the Me109 he shot was piloted by a rookie, because the plane wasn't trimmed properly. Display pilot Dave Southwood flying "Black 6" (a restored Me109G-2) wrote:
"Pitch trim is achieved by a variable incidence tailplane, but rudder and aileron trimming are only possible on the ground via fixed tabs"
"Yaw control in the 109 is interesting and not so straightforward as pitch and roll control. The directional or weathercock stability is low, and marked slipball excursions occur with any changes of speed or power. Also , there is a noticable yaw to the right when pulling up for looping manoeuvres, presumely due to the gyroscopic effect of the propeller, and the ailerons induce a moderate adverse yaw (a yaw to the right when left aileron applied and vice versa). The rudder force to centralise the slipball is low, but constantly changing rudder inputs are required during manoeuvres. However, if the slipball is not kept central, the sideforce on the pilot is not uncomfortable and no real handling problems occur, although it looks untidy in a display. For example, at the top of a left wing-over it feels quite unnatural to be cross-controlled with left aileron and a large amount of right rudder.
This low directional stability makes it hard work to fly the aircraft well although, fortunately, there are safety implications. However it must have made accurate tracking for a gun's 'kill' very difficult,and I suspect that many 109 kills were made at very close range. It also says a great deal about the shooting skills of the Luftwaffe aces. Another problem is the lack of a cockpit adjustable rudder trimmer. The fixed tab is set so that the rudder is in trim in the cruise thus reducing footloads during long transit flights. However, for all other airspeed and power combinations a rudder force must be applied. This is an annoying feature but thankfully the rudder forces are quite low."
We all know the statistics of Erich Hartmann and Hans-Joachim Marseille...

I conclude from these facts that trimming wasn't decisive in combat concerning the handling of the fighter but reduced the workload of the pilot when cruising, keeping the pilot fit.
Hope, I've helped you a little bit.

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Written by Flitze

Offline Seeker

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A luftwaffe question
« Reply #18 on: March 15, 2001, 11:34:00 PM »
Thanks for some very reasoned responses.

I'm not sure how important trimming is/was in A to A, although I imagine it could potentialy have a large effect in a protracted engagement in an "E" fighter. Poor trimming leading to excessive E loss.

However I've read several times, from sources that I certainly trust that it was vital for dive bombing. One Jug pilot's been quoted as saying that he'd "pre-trim" the plane prior to entering the dive for the pull out speed, knowing that he'd be very near to black out. The same pilot also said that at least on one occasion one of the pilots in his group was forced to fly back to base using trim as control after battle damage (the pilot headed out to sea and bailed over base). Wasn't the Stuka also fitted with "auto trim" to enable  a pull up by a blacked out pilot?

Offline kreighund

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A luftwaffe question
« Reply #19 on: March 17, 2001, 12:47:00 PM »
Spits always has rudder and elevator trim...
the reason Me109 guys trimmed excessive nose up was to gain the advantage when bounced they had a quicker pitch up than the person doing the bounce..also tended to cause an overshoot condition......