Which of these planes do you prefer to fly?? -- PIC

[Wmaker]

Ok Bodhi, I dont think there's much hope in real communication here...I'll just leave it at that.

My personal interest is on the aircraft itself which I personally find to be one of the most interesting warbird restorations in existence.

[SlapShot]

I just wanted to show you one of the sources that had given me such an idea. And after that I was hoping you would tell me your view of the matter.

Hmmm ... from what I read, he did give his view ... twice ...

That aircraft was purchased by another entity and is not undergoing a restoration to fly.

It is not in flying condition nor does the current owner intend for it to fly.  It can and does run, but will not fly in it's current state.

It looks like you didn't like his "professional" view on the matter and tried to dispute it ... and now he's the bad guy ? ... too funny.

Had I not known that Bodhi has been deeply involved in the world of WWII Warbird restoration for years and probably has access to circles and information that only a very few have access to ... I might have questioned him too ... but that's not the case.

[Saurdaukar]

But Bodhi, isn't it you who's now cut-pasting to prove a point?

Bodhi restores warbirds for a living...

[Wmaker]

Bodhi restores warbirds for a living...

And? I'm well aware of that. Mr. Champlin owned the plane and Mr. Crandall has researched the plane since the 60's and was involved in painting it during the latest restoration.

Mr. Champlin oversaw the last restoration and said it was restored to flying condition. The current owner says it was restored close to flying condition. Bodhi originally said "it is not undergoing a restoration to fly" which at least to me gave the impression that according to him it would need a new restoration to fly which I found hard to believe due to the restoration done on 2002-2004 and the current owner's comment "restored close to flying condition".

I wrote a note to Flying Heritage, haven't gotten a reply yet.

[Wmaker]

Just checked my e-mail. Actually I had gotten a reply about 1,5 hour ago...

My original message:

Hello from Finland! My personal interest lies on the rare Fw 190D-13 "Yellow 10" in your collection. I've read from several sources stating that the aircraft was restored to flyable status between 2002 and 2004. Your website mentions the aircraft to be close to flyable condition. I was wondering from the technical stand point what kind of work is needed to bring the aircraft to full flying status. It's just a hypotetical question, I do realize that the aircraft will not be flown in the near future. I'm interested in the technical details of the latest restoration and what's holding the aircraft from full flight status. Looking forward for you reply, Joonas Konttinen

Reply from the Flying Heritage's curator:

Hello Joonas,

 

The short answer to your question is that no one really knows exactly what it would take to get the FW190D to flying condition.  Yes, you are correct, the aircraft was restored to flyable status when Doug Champlin owned it.  However, since the plane is the last of its type anywhere in the world, Champlin and our owner, Mr. Allen, have both chosen not to fly the aircraft.  Since the aircraft has never really been readied for actual flight in modern times, it’s hard to say exactly what it would take.  It would certainly need an annual inspection and major system review before any flight would be attempted.  Basically, what is holding the aircraft back is not a technical issue, it’s one of historical value and the desires of its owner.

 

Thanks so much.  I hope you get the chance to visit soon!

 

Cory

 

Cory Graff

Military Aviation Curator

Flying Heritage Collection

[Saurdaukar]

Great!  That helps a lot.

Let me try and translate that Email for you.

That aircraft was purchased by another entity and is not undergoing a restoration to fly.

There we are.

[Wmaker]

Heh, Saurdaukar.

I think you need to brushup your reading comprehension a bit.

[Saurdaukar]

Heh, Saurdaukar.

I think you need to brushup your reading comprehension a bit.

Quite the opposite, actually.  Reading what you want to read and reading what is written are two different things.

The short answer to your question is that no one really knows exactly what it would take to get the FW190D to flying condition.

Conclusion: Currently, the Fw190 is not in flying condition.

Yes, you are correct, the aircraft was restored to flyable status when Doug Champlin owned it.  However, since the plane is the last of its type anywhere in the world, Champlin and our owner, Mr. Allen, have both chosen not to fly the aircraft.

Conclusion:  At one point, the Fw190 was in flyable condition.
Conclusion:  In the future, the Fw190 is not expected to be in flying condition.

Since the aircraft has never really been readied for actual flight in modern times, it’s hard to say exactly what it would take.

Conclusion:  The aircraft has not been in flying condition for some time.
Conclusion:  Currently, the Fw190 is not in flying condition.

It would certainly need an annual inspection and major system review before any flight would be attempted. 

Conclusion:  Currently, the Fw190 is not in flying condition.

Basically, what is holding the aircraft back is not a technical issue, it’s one of historical value and the desires of its owner.

Conclusion:  As Bodhi stated, ownership has been transfered and there are no plans to restore the aircraft to flyable condition.

The letter you received verifies his statement as correct.

[Wmaker]

Reading what you want to read and reading what is written are two different things.

<sigh> Right back at you. You seem to forget that Bohdi denied that it was restored to flyable the last time around.

Conclusion:  As Bodhi stated, ownership has been transfered and there are no plans to restore the aircraft to flyable condition.

I just can't see how making a systems check and clearing up any possible snafu's on the way and getting it through an annual inspection equals a restoration, something that the aircraft indeed went through 2002-2004.

Anyway, this is getting just plain silly...this thread reminds me of the fairy tail about Emperor's new clothes.

[moot]

WMaker maybe you're misreading because of linguistic/cultural differences.  Bodhi came clear to me from his first post, as to what he meant.  What I'm curious is how you reconcile this inconsistency:

"The short answer to your question is that no one really knows exactly what it would take to get the FW190D to flying condition." 

Then:

"Yes, you are correct, the aircraft was restored to flyable status when Doug Champlin owned it.  "

  If it was restored to flyable, why does no one know exactly what it would take to get it there?  Sounds like a misunderstanding. Which would fit with the below line:

the aircraft has never really been readied for actual flight in modern times, it’s hard to say exactly what it would take

[Wmaker]

Well, to me, that sounds quite normal considering the complexness of such aircraft. I know I would be biting my nails if it was mine when they would be starting it up for the first time even after all possible and needed checks would have been done three times over. The Jumo doesn't have the kind of infastructure and know-how around it today which more common engines of the warbird scene enjoy (Allison Merlin and P&Ws for example). There's of course always possibility for unexpected snafu's. So I would too be very causious in my speculations.

[Bodhi]

I am going to say this one last time, as this whole issue is really nonsense and I grew tired of dealing with it and people that have no clue as to what is entailed in a restoration.

Wmaker,
The aircraft had a major amount of restoration done, but contrary to popular opinion, it was not flight worthy after the second or first restorations.  This popular opinion includes a lot of people that were actually involved in the restoration on both ends.  There are issues, which I am not privy to, but I surmise from my discussions they are substantial.  As the information was very proprietary, I did not push further.

Next, an aircraft that has not flown in over 60 years is going to take more than some rudimentary systems checks to get it running.  A multitude of factors comes into play when an aircraft is to be flown, not the least of which will be the engine, but everything along the way through to the airframe and it's status after restoration and before.  What kind of NDT was performed and was it done on critical castings and forgings?  Was there any NDT performed at all?

I can not tell you how many times I have come along behind another restorer and found literally hundreds of issues.  This isn't always the restorer's fault, as many issues could have been left out per owner request due to expense.  That's the real crux of the issue.  What did or did not the owner address?  Not too many owners I know of are going to be willing to say they skimped when the sale of a $7 million aircraft is the case.  It does happen frequently.  I do not know nor do I care whether the previous owner did this or not.  What I do know I mentioned above.  As for the current owner, I am 100% confident that it is in good hands.  This collection is one of the best in the world, and if the decision to restore it to it's former glory is undertaken, I know of very few people capable of funding such an undertaking. 

Wmaker, I am at a loss for going any further with you.  As mentioned above, I told you these things before, and my reasoning behind my statements.  Please understand that while Mr. Graff is a "curator", it is my understanding that he is not a restorer.  The two specialties are very different from one another.  I would not begin to tell him how to take care of a piece of history outside aircraft, and I highly doubt he would do the same regarding aircraft with me. 

Again, believe what you like, but please do not treat me as though I do not know what I am talking about.  Lastly, this is the last I am going to comment on this subject.  I am liable to say something that I am bound against, and I would rather not. 


Thank you to those that stood up for me. 

[Wmaker]

I wrote a longer reply addressing your points individually but Windows bugged out on me.

So a bit shorter version...

- I do agree this "issue" has become total nonsense.

- If I understood correctly, you said that you talked with the guys that restored the aircraft but that you didn't want to push that discussion to a direction where they would have had to say something they couldn't because of confidentiality?

- Because you originally said that "not undergoing a restoration to fly" I understood it would, in your view, need another restoration to fly. Did I misunderstand you?

- I guess there's a bit of a language barrier here regarding the definition and use of the word "restoration". The 17+ years that I've followed the warbird-scene I've understood that a restoration is something that was done to this particular aircraft for example 2002-2004 and that there are different kinds of goals for a restoration on different cases. I would imagine NDT-inspection would be part of the deal if the plane was meant to be finished to flyable status. I just can't understand how even disassembling already restored plane and its engine for thorough systems/NDT check up could be called a new restoration. If that meets the criteria of a restoration then I indeed am clueless regarding what a restoration entails but then so are many others aswell. Such heavy check up/meintanance is a lot of work and costs a lot of money but as far as I know, alone, it isn't a restoration. If there was something else that you can't spill the beans on, then so be it.

- It's great that there are people with means that are oriened and willing to preserve living history like this. And on top of that, ready to display it to the public aswell.

- If you change your mind and decide to reply, I think it's best to continue with PMs.