Author Topic: vhere are mein svastikas (Read 1169 times)

Arlo · « **Reply #30 on:** December 05, 2001, 12:36:00 PM »

Mmmmmmmright .....

Vphenix · « **Reply #31 on:** December 05, 2001, 12:59:00 PM »

well said arlo

Kratzer · « **Reply #32 on:** December 05, 2001, 01:53:00 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Wmaker:
Fishu, I don't understand...what is wrong with the current FAF insignia in the 109G-2 featured in AH.

Yeah, that's my question too.

Fishu · « **Reply #33 on:** December 05, 2001, 02:08:00 PM »

Opss.. mistake

Just that I messed it up with few other games.
Forget AH from the list.. just annoys me in general that in many games its not represented right.
IL-2 doesn't

*very sad*

I haven't played AH for while and im furious due to other games not having it represented right.. you see :>

tofri · « **Reply #34 on:** December 05, 2001, 02:24:00 PM »

Swastikas are a major offence in Germany.
Its laid out in §86a StGB German Criminal Code.

Displaying, distributing or owning of Swastikas or other insignias, uniforms or greetings related to the NSDAP or its orgnisations will be punished with prison up to 3 years or a fee.
(This is of course the short form :rolleyes

This is written and performed law in Germany. Nowadays the sentences are going to the upper limit.
Of course you dont have to erase ths dirt from historic pictures or films, but AcesHigh is not a program for education or science.

If in AH would be Swastikas on the planes or in future troopers of the WaffenSS, owning the game would be criminal for Germans.

It wouldn't be a big problem, as long the police do not find a oil painting of Adolf on the wall

For that you go directly to prison and not over parole. No joke.

It would be impossible to make homepages for german squads. The hyperlink to HTC would be enough to rise an investigation on you.

I am very glad, that HTC shows so much respect for our situation. <S>

Tofri

Arlo · « **Reply #35 on:** December 05, 2001, 05:02:00 PM »

No ... you're doing fine. Let's have some more of your "wis-dumb".

Quote

Originally posted by Vphenix:
well said arlo

-----
Vphenix saz,"If you have a such a big problem with the swastika, you better have your head examined.

Im no nazi, my grandparents where killed by them. and my country was invaded by them."

Fishu · « **Reply #36 on:** December 05, 2001, 06:15:00 PM »

Tofri,

That sounds scary and crazy..
phew..

Furious · « **Reply #37 on:** December 05, 2001, 06:51:00 PM »

Funked,

Next time you are down town, go by the Mint and look at the old cast iron lampposts on the sidewalk in front.

They have swastikas cast in all around the base.

If anyone noticed those posts would be gone in a heart beat, good thing most americans don't have amazing powers of observation.

F.

PS. I only see that swastikas in AH would be doing more harm than good.

illo · « **Reply #38 on:** December 05, 2001, 07:13:00 PM »

Quote

It wouldn't be a big problem, as long the police do not find a oil painting of Adolf on the wall <biggrin.gif> For that you go directly to prison and not over parole. No joke.

Really scary. When germany is really going to be free country? Isn't this banning and cersorship just what national socialists did?

people should learn from history

not to close their eyes.

tofri · « **Reply #39 on:** December 06, 2001, 05:37:00 AM »

There is always a "slight" difference between written law and spoken law.

This act is used as a useful "weapon" against such idiots, who run around beating up foreigners. They act in groups and as in every modern justice you have to prove each individual, what he has done.
But with these laws §86 or §130 (Volksverhetzung : this is disparagement of other groups and/or the denial of the nazi crimes) you can do something against them.

These laws are part of the concept of the "wehrhafte Demokratie" (fortified democracy)
In the Weimarer Republik (the time in Germany between WWI and WWII) every kind and form of political agitation was allowed. Even if they declared to destroy the state.
This led to a street war between the paramilitary organisations of the nazis, communists and others (royalists, revanchists...). In the end the democracy was rotten and powerless.
What than happened everyone knows, I hope.

After WWII everyone knew, that a democracy must be strong enough to protect itself.
So they laid down in the constitution, that the state has the rights to protect himself, against persons or groups which want to destroy the democracy, human rights or individual personal rights.
AND every person has the right to protect the constitution against the government. (In extreme it means, you are allowed to kill the government, if they install a dictatoreship hehe).
This worked very well up to now.

About censorship, illo.
I agree with you completely. The banning of Mein Kampf or other books and films is TMO a stupid idea. If you really want them, you get them (a hooray on online-shopping) .

There are many pros and many cons for this issue, but in the end we now have a stable and living democracy. And that is absolutely good.

ToFri

csThor · « **Reply #40 on:** December 06, 2001, 06:46:00 AM »

I don´t think you can call banning of NS Insignia, the swastika or the SS Runes in Germany a censorship. Maybe for US citizens who are used to totally freedom of speech.

Displaying those insignia is simply against §86 and the few exceptions (art, documentary, education) are what I said - exceptions.

Another problem is that the swastika - whatever it ment in ancient times or whatever it means in other cultural regions of the world - is still a symbol for racial motivated hate, intolerance, borderless quest for power and some of the most awful crimes ever commited by human beings. And to make it worse the spirit of it is still running around here (especially in the eastern part where the change only brought unemployment and social descend).

And finally - the international media (and of course our own media dominated by liberal to leftist companies) still watch out for every single happening in connection with Neo-Nazis to bring it out on the first page. So the german government is trying to push back the spirit and the signs to prevent a loss of prestige for Germany. Unfortunately they go too far and installed a sick self-masochism when it comes to the topic of 1933-45.

[ 12-06-2001: Message edited by: csThor ]

Seeker · « **Reply #41 on:** December 06, 2001, 08:02:00 AM »

Aren't the US and Germany in agreement on the importance of symboligy?

In Germany, symboligy is recognised as so important, you may not have swatstikas.

In USA, symboligy is recognised as so important, you may not desacrate the flag.

Is this not two sides of the same coin?

Arlo · « **Reply #42 on:** December 06, 2001, 11:47:00 AM »

Seeker, no laws have been passed banning the desecration of the U.S. flag ... yet. Yep, Americans tend to feel pretty strongly about freedom of speech. Even the freedom of idiots and buttheads.

Oh .... and trying to make this a "censorship vs freedom" issue doesn't wash. Owners of businesses have the same rights as their customers and may reserve the right to not serve anyone (and probably would do so if that someone offended the other customers). Not unlike the store where the owner asks you to leave for not wearing shoes or wearing a shirt with an offensive slogan or symbol on it. Too bad. There is no prejudice involved, just good business practices. Get over it.

[ 12-06-2001: Message edited by: Arlo ]