Author Topic: HAPPY VJ DAY!!!  (Read 2416 times)

Offline Stalwart

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1055
Re: HAPPY VJ DAY!!!
« Reply #15 on: August 14, 2009, 04:36:56 PM »
Where I live, there are plenty of people who will yell in your face that the USA is evil and that we are the only country that ever nuked an enemy...  These people have no perspective.  Thank God we got the bomb before the Germans did, and thank God our leadership had the will to use it and save the lives of our fathers and grandfathers instead of invading the Japanese home islands.

Offline Masherbrum

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 22416
Re: HAPPY VJ DAY!!!
« Reply #16 on: August 14, 2009, 04:41:06 PM »
Commemorate you idiots. Don't celebrate the deaths of millions.  :(

My point exactly.   There's a way to go about it, but this was "classless" from the OP. 
FSO Squad 412th FNVG
http://worldfamousfridaynighters.com/
Co-Founder of DFC

Offline Kermit de frog

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3708
      • LGM Films
Re: HAPPY VJ DAY!!!
« Reply #17 on: August 14, 2009, 04:41:22 PM »
Where I live, there are plenty of people who will yell in your face that the USA is evil and that we are the only country that ever nuked an enemy...  These people have no perspective.  Thank God we got the bomb before the Germans did, and thank God our leadership had the will to use it and save the lives of our fathers and grandfathers instead of invading the Japanese home islands.

So if Hitler acquired the atomic bomb and used it on Britain, it would have been ok?  He would have saved millions of lives too.
Time's fun when you're having flies.

Offline stodd

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2355
Re: HAPPY VJ DAY!!!
« Reply #18 on: August 14, 2009, 04:45:38 PM »
Where I live, there are plenty of people who will yell in your face that the USA is evil and that we are the only country that ever nuked an enemy...  These people have no perspective.  Thank God we got the bomb before the Germans did, and thank God our leadership had the will to use it and save the lives of our fathers and grandfathers instead of invading the Japanese home islands.
Out of curiosity, where do you live?
Stodd/ CandyMan
I don't get why you even typed that, you know it's stupid.


Offline Anaxogoras

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7072
Re: HAPPY VJ DAY!!!
« Reply #19 on: August 14, 2009, 04:47:57 PM »
So if Hitler acquired the atomic bomb and used it on Britain, it would have been ok?  He would have saved millions of lives too.

Come on Kermit, you know that's a straw-man.
gavagai
334th FS


RPS for Aces High!

Offline Kermit de frog

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3708
      • LGM Films
Re: HAPPY VJ DAY!!!
« Reply #20 on: August 14, 2009, 04:51:13 PM »
Come on Kermit, you know that's a straw-man.


Why did we use the atom bomb?  What did Japan do for use to reasonable think the atom bomb would be a better idea than sending our military men?
Time's fun when you're having flies.

Offline Dago

  • Parolee
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5324
Re: HAPPY VJ DAY!!!
« Reply #21 on: August 14, 2009, 04:51:50 PM »
We are celebrating an end to the death of millions!  Please note the term Happy Victory Over Japan Day rather than Happy World War II Day. 

The allies didn't start the killing, we ENDED it! :rock

Damn right.
"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, martini in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"

Offline Ack-Ack

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 25260
      • FlameWarriors
Re: HAPPY VJ DAY!!!
« Reply #22 on: August 14, 2009, 04:57:11 PM »
fixed that for ya! (although it doesn't have the same ring to it :/ )

 :salute to all the Aussies, Brits and Kiwis who also faught in the Pacific.....

Don't forget the Dutch, Chinese, Indian, Burmese, etc...


ack-ack
"If Jesus came back as an airplane, he would be a P-38." - WW2 P-38 pilot
Elite Top Aces +1 Mexican Official Squadron Song

Offline trigger2

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1342
Re: HAPPY VJ DAY!!!
« Reply #23 on: August 14, 2009, 05:01:41 PM »

Why did we use the atom bomb?  What did Japan do for use to reasonable think the atom bomb would be a better idea than sending our military men?

Quote
Try this on for size. Would there be any Japanese alive today in Japan had the bomb not been used? In all likelihood the answer is no.

Towards the end of the war on islands such as Iwo Jima and Okinawa Japanese troops did not give up and were quite literally fighting to the death rather than face the shame of surrender or capture. And on Okinawa US troops were forced to watch as Japanese civillians commited mass suicide without being able to reach them in time to stop it from happening. The death toll on Japanese soldiers and civillians was higher than it was for Allied soldiers on Japanese held islands. But these weren't the home islands, and since the end of the war we've learned a lot more about what was likely to have happened had the home islands been invaded.

And they would have been invaded as Japan was not on the brink of surrender as some believe. The war had largely been lost for Japan at Midway, that was June of 1942. What was left was three years of fighting to clear the Japanese out of the islands of the Pacific they had captured (and territory in mainland Asia they'd taken as well). For three years they fought to the death with an intensity that became more ferocious not only as time went by but also as the Allied forces got closer and closer to the home islands. The estimates of an invasion of the home islands have already shown that a minimum of a quarter of a million Allied troops would have died in just the first wave of the planned invasion. Just one wave of many, and no one knows what the numbers of Japanese would have been. But it would have been far higher than the estimated 220,000 deaths combined from both Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

We know now that every man, woman, and child that could was expected to fight to the death to defend the home islands and the Emperor from the invasion. Pamphlets were given out to Japanese citizens instructing them how to use everyday emplements such as garden rakes and brooms as weapons. And what do you think the suicide total on the home islands would have been like? Far higher than Okinawa, that's for certain. Those who could not fight or who were likely to have lost their nerve would have commited suicide rather than be captured by the invaders. Over 1 or 2 million Allied lives would have have been lost in the invasion of the home islands and an untold number of Japanese lives, quite possibly every single Japanese in the home islands, would have been lost before all was said and done.

So why surrender after the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagaski if they weren't on the verge of doing so before? Fighting to repel the invaders was far more honorable and had more of a point to it than simply letting folks die pointlessly. And it would have been pointlessly as it was believed more A-bombs could have been dropped on Japanese cities with there being virtually nothing that could be done to stop it. On top of that, the Soviets were getting ready to invade Japan as well and it was expected that better terms could be achieved with the Americans and other Allies than with the Soviets.
Sometimes, we just need to remember what the rules of life really are: You only
need two tools: WD-40 and Duct Tape. If it doesn't move and should, use the
WD-40. If it shouldn't move and does, use the duct tape.
*TAs Aerofighters Inc.*

Offline Anaxogoras

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7072
Re: HAPPY VJ DAY!!!
« Reply #24 on: August 14, 2009, 05:18:51 PM »
All I'm saying Kermit is that going from here...

Quote
Thank God we got the bomb before the Germans did, and thank God our leadership had the will to use it and save the lives of our fathers and grandfathers instead of invading the Japanese home islands.

to here...

Quote
So if Hitler acquired the atomic bomb and used it on Britain, it would have been ok?  He would have saved millions of lives too.

...is a very uncharitable interpretation of what he was trying to say.
gavagai
334th FS


RPS for Aces High!

Offline Ack-Ack

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 25260
      • FlameWarriors
Re: HAPPY VJ DAY!!!
« Reply #25 on: August 14, 2009, 05:32:31 PM »

Why did we use the atom bomb?  What did Japan do for use to reasonable think the atom bomb would be a better idea than sending our military men?

Are you serious?  Are you really that ignorant of World War II history?  Oh wait, what am I thinking, you're convinced that Churchill is the one that started World War II.

Anyway, to address your rather ignorant question...

The Invasion of the Japanese Home Islands (Operation Downfall) was going to be in two parts, Operation Olympic (capturing the southern third of Kyushu, using Okinawa as a staging area.  Set to begin October 1945) and Operation Coronet (invasion of the Kanto Plain near Tokyo.  Set to begin Spring 1946).  The geography of Japan favored the defenders because they were accurately able to figure out where the Allies were planning on invading, unlike Operation Overlord, it wasn't going to be a surprise attack. 

According to the details of Operation Ketsugo (the Japanese plan for defending the Home Islands), Japan was planning an all out defense of Kyushu at the invasion beaches, including using all available civilians over the age of 10 (armed with basic weapons like spears).  Japan's goal was not to defeat the Allies, it was already resigned to the fact they weren't going to win the war but rather they wanted to inflict so many casualties that the Allies were forced to the negotiating table and agree to an armistace instead of unconditional surrender.

Now, the Allies already had a taste of what was to be expected when they invaded Japan after the battles for Iwo, Saipan and Okinawa and those three bloody battles would look like a cake walk compared to the invasion of the home islands.  Also, it was expected that it would take at least an additional 2 to 3 years before the total unconditional surrender of the Japanese forces on the home islands and at least a decade or more of counter-insurgency operations after their surrender.

But the major factor were the estimated casualty figures.  Planners estimated that not only will all available Japanese military forces defend against an invasion, planners also figured that they would also be opposed by a fanatically hostile population.  Below are some estimated casualty figures:

  • A study done by the Joint Chiefs of Staff, the figures of 7.45 casualties/1,000 man-days and 1.78 fatalities/1,000 man-days were developed. This implied that a 90-day Olympic campaign would cost 456,000 casualties, including 109,000 dead or missing. If Coronet took another 90 days, the combined cost would be 1,200,000 casualties, with 267,000 fatalities
  • A study done by Admiral Nimitz's staff estimated 49,000 casualties in the first 30 days, including 5,000 at sea
  • A study done by General MacArthur's staff estimated 23,000 in the first 30 days and 125,000 after 120 days
  • In a conference with President Truman, Gen. Marshall, taking the Battle of Luzon as the best model for Olympic, thought the Americans would suffer 31,000 casualties in the first 30 days (and ultimately 20% of Japanese casualties, which implied a total of 70,000 casualties)
  • Admital Leahy, more impressed by the Battle of Okinawa, thought the American forces would suffer a 35% casualty rate (implying an ultimate toll of 268,000)
  • Admiral King thought that casualties in the first 30 days would fall between Luzon and Okinawa, i.e., between 31,000 and 41,000

Of these estimates, only Nimitz's included losses of the forces at sea, though kamikazes had inflicted 1.78 fatalities per kamikaze pilot in the Battle of Okinawa, and troop transports off Kyushu would have been much more exposed.

Additionally, a study done for Secretary of War Henry Stimson's staff by William Shockley estimated that conquering Japan would cost 1.7 to 4 million American casualties, including 400,000 to 800,000 fatalities, and five to ten million Japanese fatalities. The key assumption was large-scale participation by civilians in the defense of Japan.

Now, remember that Okinawa gave the Allies a taste of what was to come if they invaded the main home islands.  The Battle of Okinawa ran up 72,000 casualties in 82 days, of whom 18,900 were killed or missing (this doesn't include the several thousand Allied soldiers that later died as a result of their wounds).  Okinawa is 464 square miles; to take it, therefore, cost the United States 407 soldiers (killed or missing) for every 10 square miles of island. If the U.S. casualty rate during the invasion of Japan had only been 5 percent as high per square mile as it was at Okinawa, the United States would still have lost 297,000 soldiers (killed or missing).

But for the best reason why we dropped the bomb to end the war, just ask any veteran that was slated to take part in the invasion. 

ack-ack
« Last Edit: August 14, 2009, 05:36:12 PM by Ack-Ack »
"If Jesus came back as an airplane, he would be a P-38." - WW2 P-38 pilot
Elite Top Aces +1 Mexican Official Squadron Song

Offline Masherbrum

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 22416
Re: HAPPY VJ DAY!!!
« Reply #26 on: August 14, 2009, 05:36:39 PM »
Are you serious?  Are you really that ignorant of World War II history?  Oh wait, what am I thinking, you're convinced that Churchill is the one that started World War II.

But for the best reason why we dropped the bomb to end the war, just ask any veteran that was slated to take part in the invasion

ack-ack

Absolutely.   Otherwise, I never would have spent 24 years with my Grandpa.   His unit was slated to go right into Yokohama Bay.   It would have been wholesale slaughter on both sides.   

FSO Squad 412th FNVG
http://worldfamousfridaynighters.com/
Co-Founder of DFC

Offline Kermit de frog

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3708
      • LGM Films
Re: HAPPY VJ DAY!!!
« Reply #27 on: August 14, 2009, 06:01:20 PM »
Are you all saying Japan was willing to fight with every last man, woman and child, therefore creating the possibility of millions dead or injured on both sides of the war, and that this was the biggest reason for using the atom bomb?
Time's fun when you're having flies.

Offline sandwich

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 590
Re: HAPPY VJ DAY!!!
« Reply #28 on: August 14, 2009, 06:06:31 PM »
Quote

Why did we use the atom bomb?  What did Japan do for use to reasonable think the atom bomb would be a better idea than sending our military men?

kamikaze and fight to the death mentality brought by the skewing of the Bushido code.

if we didn't use the atom bomb 1 million Americans would have become casualties and we would have had to kill 90% of the people in japan basically wiping out the entire Japanese nation.

that is why the bomb was used and why it is justified.

Offline Masherbrum

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 22416
Re: HAPPY VJ DAY!!!
« Reply #29 on: August 14, 2009, 06:12:16 PM »
Are you all saying Japan was willing to fight with every last man, woman and child, therefore creating the possibility of millions dead or injured on both sides of the war, and that this was the biggest reason for using the atom bomb?

Read "The Last Great Victory" by Stanley Weintraub.   Kermit, the civilians would have "bought the propaganda at first".   Only a fool would believe otherwise.  

But this book is perhaps the best at detailing the last months of WWII in great detail. 
FSO Squad 412th FNVG
http://worldfamousfridaynighters.com/
Co-Founder of DFC