Author Topic: they are mistaken? (Read 493 times)

garrido · « **on:** December 10, 2001, 03:08:00 AM »

Hello friend's

If you think that G10 and K4 are equal they mistake.
If they think that G10 of AH this modeled good, is mistaken.
If they think that K4 was modeled costraight, they are mistaken?
If they think that Spitfire IX this modeled good, is mistaken.
If they think that Spitfire XIV was modeled costraight they mistake?

Greetings

Supongo

Hola amigos:Si ustedes piensan que el G10 y el K4 son iguales se equivocan.
Si piensan que el G10 de AH esta bien modelado, se equivocan.
Si piensan que el K4 se modelara corectamente, ¿se equivocan?
Si piensan que el Spitfire IX esta bien modelado, se equivocan.
Si piensan que el Spitfire XIV se modelara corectamente ¿se equivocan?

Saludos

Supongo

Karnak · « **Reply #1 on:** December 10, 2001, 05:05:00 AM »

Er, there is no Bf109K-4 or Spitfire MkXIV to even be mismodeled in AH.

Please clarify your other points.

How is the Bf109G-10 mismodeled?

How is the Spitfire MkIX mismodeled?

If you are one of the MANDOBLE types who thinks that all German fighters outclimbed, outdove, out rolled, out turned and out gunned the Spitfire, then don't bother replying because you are clueless.

If you think that the aircraft had pros and cons, I'm interested in your reasoning and evidence of any mismodeling.

SageFIN · « **Reply #2 on:** December 10, 2001, 10:48:00 AM »

I believe that the tenses were "slightly" mutated during the translation process. I'm not sure what Supongo is trying to say but I believe he does have a clue enough to have noticed that SpitXIV and 109K4 are not in the game.

As far as I can tell, he is basically saying that the 109G10 and the SpitIX aren't quite accurate, which is true. AFAIK the G10 in AH has the speed of a K4, which isn't right because the K4 had a speed advantage due to more streamlined fuselage. As for the SpitIX, it has strange weapons loadout combinations for being a F.IX. This has been noted many times.

Soooo... I think Supongo is trying to say that if there ever will be K4 and XIV, they will not be correctly modeled (or that people will say that they're perfect even if they are not). Dunno, really, just my interpretation, but you sure jump to negative conclusions fast, Karnak.

Urchin · « **Reply #3 on:** December 10, 2001, 06:05:00 PM »

He is saying that the G10 and Spit IX are not modeled correctly. Those who think they are modelled correctly are mistaken.

He is saying that those who think the Spit XIV and 109K4 will be modeled correctly (assuming they are introduced) are mistaken.

Don't agree with him, but that is what he is trying to say in English.

EDIT: Oh, and Sage. Supongo has been claiming that the 109G10 is undermodelled (when it is in fact OVER-modeled if it has the speed of a K-4, I'd rather see the K-4 introduced and the G-10 modelled correctly), and that the Spitfire IX is overmodelled for some time. He thinks the Spitfire retains E to well and turns to well, if I recall correctly. Don't agree with his views on the Spitfire, but I do agree that the G-10 is off.

[ 12-10-2001: Message edited by: Urchin ]

Karnak · « **Reply #4 on:** December 10, 2001, 08:57:00 PM »

Sorry about jumping on him, but after going around with MANDOBLE I am a bit testy.

I don't think that the Bf109G-10 or Spitfire MkIX are modeled perfectly either, I don't think that it is possible to do an absolutely correct FM in a computer game.

What I take umbrage at is the frequent insinuations by some people that Allied aircraft and thr N1K2 are all overmodeled and German aircraft are all undermodeled. I think its a mixed bag, and things are generally within 5 to 10% of where they should be.

Urchin's post above this one is an example of a reasoned post. I offer my appologies to Garrido if he was saying the same things.

Read MANDOBLE's posts in his La-7 thread in the "Aces High General Discussion" forum to see what I mean by unreasonable.

Glasses · « **Reply #5 on:** December 12, 2001, 07:39:00 AM »

I have spoken with Supongo many times and one of his biggest complaints is that after a turn the plane who just did a tight one is able to considerbaly close in or even closure rate does not decrease after a turn.

That may be one of the things we have discussed in the past. The other matter we have discussed in the past was the innability of the 109 series in AH to perform a flawless Hammerhead without it spinning out of control.

I don't think any model in the game(cept pony) is modeled 100% accurately, some more than others. Frankly one of the planes who can survive the arena at alt is the 109G10,it isn't like AKshe wulfe says point your nose skyward and it'll fly away sure it has considerable climb rate but nontheless once above 400mph it becomes a lawndart making it uncontrolable by no means being able to zoom up with the 500mph big boys.

But up at alt where most aircraft are stalling out the 109G10 can leave behind the mustang in straight and level flight clamoring for at least a pass. Eventhough it may not kill the target it can still cause considerable damage to put it out of action.

By no means a popsicle cat bu once below 5k it's not easy prey but you can kill them quite easily if you have an alt advantage(and if you're not dumb enough to go into a turning fight bleeding your E state).

Ripsnort · « **Reply #6 on:** December 12, 2001, 07:48:00 AM »

Who won the Battle of Britain?

Case closed.

fd ski · « **Reply #7 on:** December 12, 2001, 10:25:00 AM »

"spitfire retains E too well"
favorite argument for those who can't scientifically prove their prejudice...

Tac · « **Reply #8 on:** December 12, 2001, 10:28:00 AM »

Ripsnort:

Radar and morons commanding the luftwaffe (namely, Goering).

I believe glasses is correct, the AH G10 is overmodelled a tad and does have an amazing control on hammerheads (although I LIKE that the plane shows TORQUE effects, unlike the F4U and N1k!).

The spitfire... heh, he's right on the turn thing at least, the spit had a great wing design, but turning at high g's and losing that little E is simply ludicrous. Its the only plane that can turn real hard to one side to avoid a high speed, hi alt bouncer, turn hard back into him after he evades and only lose around 50 to 60mph doing the equivalent of a 180 turn (90 to one side, 90 on return). Guess we may see some changes on that.. in about 8 tours (clocked average for serious fm issue fixes).

Glasses · « **Reply #9 on:** December 12, 2001, 01:47:00 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Tac:

I believe glasses is correct, the AH G10 is overmodelled a tad and does have an amazing control on hammerheads (although I LIKE that the plane shows TORQUE effects, unlike the F4U and N1k!).

.

On the contrary Tac, re read the post, it says, that the 109 in AH has Horrible hi Alpha control, making Hammerheads almost imposible. Though, I have been able to perform them but, not without considerable loss in control or even a slight spin.

Yes it does show torque effects and no, it's a E bleeder all the way ,just that it handles the E better than most LW planes contributed mostly by the engine it has.

I conquer it's a bit overmodeled in that can go slightly faster on deck than published charts , other than that I don't think how else it could be.

[ 12-12-2001: Message edited by: Glasses ]

Wmaker · « **Reply #10 on:** December 13, 2001, 02:28:00 AM »

Guys, I'm not an aeronautical engineer and haven't flown a real one so I can't really say anything else than its behaviour matches to most things I've read about it but what comes to the top speed AH G-10 is spot on...

The best level top speed in AH that I've been able to
get is 440mph +1/-1 mph. Real life example of AH G-10 (the one that its markings match to) had DB-605DCM engine. Daimler-Benz original performance sheet stated highest output of 2200hp for that engine with MW-50 injection... So basically it has pretty much K-like performance in AH as it should. There were a plethora of differently performing G-10s depending which fuel or engine they used for example.

There seems to be some misinformation on this board claiming that all G-10s had the same performance and that it was slightly below K-4 all the way. This simply isn't true.

-----------------

1Wmaker1

garrido · « **Reply #11 on:** December 13, 2001, 03:27:00 AM »

the BoB was gained as a whole by the RAF, but in the section it figthers versus figthers was won by the BF109E. In the battle of the 1941 channel the proportion of LW (109F) went from 4 to 1 victories against the RAF in figthers versus figthers, this proportion was greater even but with the entrance in combat of the FW190.
you always request data of everything, that data you of the exceptional handling of the Spitfire IX have and that in AH this correctly modeled?
Of where estab removed those data?
The Spitfire tapeworm a thin and aerodynamic wing, exactly equal of good that the 109, nevertheless, its frontal one was less aerodynamic than the one of the hunting German.

A greeting

Supongo

la BoB fue ganada en su conjunto por la RAF, pero en el apartado caza vs caza fue ganada por el BF109E.
En la batalla del canal de 1941 la proporcion de la LW (109F) fue de 4 derribos frente a 1 perdida contra la RAF en caza vs caza, esta proporción se agrabo aun mas con la entrada en combate del FW190.
ustedes siempre piden pruebas de todo, que puebas tienen ustedes del comportmiento excepcional del Spitfire IX y que en AH este correctamente modelado?
De donde estab sacados esos datos?
El Spitfire tenia un ala delgada y aerodinamica, exactamente igual de buena que el 109, sin embargo, su frontal era menos aerodinamico que la del caza aleman.

Un saludo

Supongo

MANDOBLE · « **Reply #12 on:** December 13, 2001, 07:55:00 AM »

Karnak, being from California, I, mistakely, supposed you were able to read/understand english.

Where have I said any LW plane should out-anything the spit? Dont come here to attack a player's post due you are unable to understand the meaning of another player post. Learn to read, then read to understand what you read, and, as a final goal, learn to debate about what you have read and understood.

If, after reading that "I vote to perk the spit due its capabilities and overUSAGE (obviously this is not calculated by total kills / spit kills) in our actual MA environment", you understand that what I mean is that any LW plane should be much better than any Spit in any aspect, then better go to www.soybobo.com and download yourself a new "understanding basic english" patch.

Seeker · « **Reply #13 on:** December 13, 2001, 08:04:00 AM »

Whiner.

Sundog · « **Reply #14 on:** December 13, 2001, 02:51:00 PM »

FYI, the hammer head is performed at a very low angle of attack (The aircraft is pointing going straight up initially, but angle of attack is wrt to the relative wind, not the horizontal axis). As such, I have a difficult time performing a hammerhead as well in AH. I don't have that problem in IL-2, but I think it is possibly in how they respectively take into account the stick forces/input relationship. I know Pyro posted something regarding this issue AWHILE back. You may want to check it out, if you can find it.