Plane views in turn fights.

[Vinkman]

This observation is related very strongly to Badboy's post about flaps and turn fighting which got me thinking about this. I'm putting here in the hopes that Badboy (or other highly qualified AH expert) can provide an answer, but I'm starting a new thread because I think it is a new-enough topic.

When in turn fights (as BadBoy describes) with me as the 'tail' to the shooter's 'Nose', I often look out the back-up view and see the top side of the opposing aircraft. In thinking about this, I feel as though I should be safe as long as don't see the bottom of his aircraft because he can't be pulling enough lead to score hits unless he is past normal.

Quite often, to my great surprise, this is not the case and hits are scored by a plane that seems too tangent to my turn circle. My strategy in those situations is to wait until I see his underside as I drop below is nose out of view, as he pulls lead for the high deflection shot, and roll out of the circle and gain a little distance before he realizes I'm gone. But alas I'm dead before this happens. Am I missing something or does this seem impossible. I know that when I'm in a tight turn fight and pull enough lead to score hits, I can no longer see the enemy plane.

So how am I dying with a line of sight view of the opposing pilot in a tight turn fight? 

[Anaxogoras]

Net lag causes you to see the other guy's position in the past.

[moot]

You have to account for lag.  If you've seen the threads discussing collisions, that's the margins roughly. It varies from player to player and day to day, but with enough stick time you'll get a good enough feel for when you're in danger.
The specifics of what to do depend on the exact fight..  Depends on what you're flying, the other guy's plane, relative speeds & alt, etc.  Disengaging while their nose is over you to make their shot is good.  You just need to keep practicing it to get the timing down pat.  Keep in mind that there's a big variance in visibility over the nose from plane to plane.  The spit and P51 are average, the 109s are usually pretty bad, the mossie is excellent.  Also, some planes have a flexible enough departure that they could be right on the edge and pull a relatively large extra angle for just long enough to shoot.

[Lusche]

Two things coming immediately to my mind that have to be taken into consideration:

First: Due to lag, you and your enemy's postions may show differently on your and his screen respectively. While it seems from your perspective he can't be able to see you, it's very well possible that on his screen things look just enough different to make a, uh, difference
A simple example: i have been shot by a Lancaster despite being under it's belly. On my screen I was outside his tailgun's arc, on his screen I was still further away and thus in his arc.

Second: You may been below your enemies' nose and not visible to him. That still doesn't mean he can't shoot you. It's all a matter of experience. Quite a lot of my victims were "invisible" to me when i pulled the trigger, either being under my nose or me being blacking out due to pulling G's. It's a matter of timing.



EDIT: Being slow today again...

[TequilaChaser]

I often look out the back-up view and see the top side of the opposing aircraft. In thinking about this, I feel as though I should be safe as long as don't see the bottom of his aircraft because he can't be pulling enough lead to score hits unless he is past normal.

in deciphering the above quote........when looking out the Back/up 45deg view.........it is always in to relation fo where you are seeing him in that view angle.......if you are seeing his plane's topside and he is nearer toward the tail section of that view, then more than likely he has no guns solution......
if he is somewhere present near the middle or more closer to the front ( ie...you can see him in the straight up view closer to your back/up view or in the back/up view closer to the edge of being the straight up view ) then there is almost a definite chance he does have or is close to having a guns solution.....

now if he is in the straight back "6" view and you are seeing the top of his plane, then he definitely is in lag pursuit and his AOT is so much that he in no way has a gun solution......

knowing where to pick up your enemy in your rearview / rear-up 45 deg view / straight up view, then realizing exactly where his nose is pointing is a very key element when deciphering whether they are able to bring guns to bear or not.....

I hope I have helped explain the reason you sometimes think they have no shot on you, when infact they really do...it is all in relation to where they are in that specific view and how much you see of their planes top side / view angle dependent of course.....

hope this helps

edit: wow, I am even slower, 3 people have posted since I went to typing my response to this question of Vinkman's 

[bmwgs]

Two things coming immediately to my mind that have to be taken into consideration:

First: Due to lag, you and your enemy's postions may show differently on your and his screen respectively. While it seems from your perspective he can't be able to see you, it's very well possible that on his screen things look just enough different to make a, uh, difference
A simple example: i have been shot by a Lancaster despite being under it's belly. On my screen I was outside his tailgun's arc, on his screen I was still further away and thus in his arc.

Second: You may been below your enemies' nose and not visible to him. That still doesn't mean he can't shoot you. It's all a matter of experience. Quite a lot of my victims were "invisible" to me when i pulled the trigger, either being under my nose or me being blacking out due to pulling G's. It's a matter of timing.



EDIT: Being slow today again...

No doubt this happens. 

I have film after film that shows from my perspective that the con did not have a gun solution.  When I review the films their nose is not pointing at me and their gun tracers clearly show they are shooting a significant distance front - top - below - or behind me.  I think I am like everyone one else, I base most of my tactics on what the other person is doing.  How do I train (learn) to engage when the person is not where I see them?

Fred

[Blooz]

No doubt this happens. 

I have film after film that shows from my perspective that the con did not have a gun solution.  When I review the films their nose is not pointing at me and their gun tracers clearly show they are shooting a significant distance front - top - below - or behind me.  I think I am like everyone one else, I base most of my tactics on what the other person is doing.  How do I train (learn) to engage when the person is not where I see them?

Fred

The positioning isn't enough to change your tactics.

When you roll in on someone they should have no choice but to die.

The perfect engagement is when you send the enemy back to the tower and he doesn't even know where you came from.

[Vinkman]

You have to account for lag.  If you've seen the threads discussing collisions, that's the margins roughly. It varies from player to player and day to day, but with enough stick time you'll get a good enough feel for when you're in danger.
The specifics of what to do depend on the exact fight..  Depends on what you're flying, the other guy's plane, relative speeds & alt, etc.  Disengaging while their nose is over you to make their shot is good.  You just need to keep practicing it to get the timing down pat.  Keep in mind that there's a big variance in visibility over the nose from plane to plane.  The spit and P51 are average, the 109s are usually pretty bad, the mossie is excellent.  Also, some planes have a flexible enough departure that they could be right on the edge and pull a relatively large extra angle for just long enough to shoot.

This was my first thought. Thanks to Lusche and the other input. all of it good.

vinkman

[Agent360]

Interesting topic.

I am pretty sure I understand what you are talking about. The 109k4 is the plane I fly most in. Because is does not have the best inherent turning ability I am forced to use other tactics.

These include, low and hi yoyo’s, stalling the plane with flaps to near 0 airspeed, creating temporary high closure to my side or tail by slowing down and using yoyo’s.

Now what does this have to do with your question.

The moves you are making are valid moves and should in most circumstances create a low or no probability shot. That is not the problem.

The problem is that the bandit is executing a counter to your move. And even worse you can’t see it happen because he is out of your view when he makes the move. This is due to the hard g loaded turn you make in your described kind of defense. And if your not pulling G’s it is still hard to detect the counter.

Unless you KNOW its coming. You should assume it is.

I regularly see the “turney” planes pull hard g break turns, vertical yoyo’s and modified scissors to avoid my attack. Normally these would work on a plane pulling lead for a typical 50 call shot.

But I am not trying to do that. I am trying to present the appearance of a lead pursuit gun solution. I want you to make the moves you describe. Each time you do this you burn energy while I keep mine. My goal is to reduce the separation forcing you to continue these kinds of moves. This can be done in both a slow and fast fight. In the fast wide turn fight it becomes more angles. In the slow fight it becomes more throttle and flaps.

Having gained control of the closure (by yoyo’s, throttle or flaps) I know have the ability to point my nose for a shot.

Now I will wait for the right moment. If you try to roll out or break flat I can simply roll over with you and pull an easy lead. If try to neg g under my nose I can easily pull flat and then roll.

One can make very shallow yoyo’s and control the throttle and keep creating gun solutions. Even if you go under the nose I still know where you are going. In fact it helps sometimes because I can use that as ref to your turn. You go under nose at certain point you will come out at a certain point…Or even better you go under nose and I roll to make you come out where I can shoot you in sight.

If you can not create an angle that forces an over shoot then you are in guns. So if you make the turn under the bandits nose you must force some kind of overshoot or he will still be behind you.

The bottom line is your getting shot because the bandit can adjust his nose angle by rolling over or using a shallow slow yoyo. All you see is the angle you create by your defense move…what you don’t see is the subtle counter.


Agent360

[RTHolmes]

^ good stuff

[Vinkman]

Interesting topic.
The bottom line is your getting shot because the bandit can adjust his nose angle by rolling over or using a shallow slow yoyo. All you see is the angle you create by your defense move…what you don’t see is the subtle counter.


Agent360

Agent,
I agree with your analysis of the tactics and counters, and understand clearly that I CAN get shot by the bandit if uses the tactics you describe. But when he does he still has to pull lead across the turn circle and I should be able to see when it happens, even if the persuer has yo-yo's or ruddered into the lead position for the shoot. I guess internet games can't be perfect from a real-time standpoint I will have to learn how to account for that.
Thanks for the post. Very helpfull on a lot of fronts.



Vinkman

[Agent360]

Agent,
I agree with your analysis of the tactics and counters, and understand clearly that I CAN get shot by the bandit if uses the tactics you describe. But when he does he still has to pull lead across the turn circle and I should be able to see when it happens, even if the persuer has yo-yo's or ruddered into the lead position for the shoot. I guess internet games can't be perfect from a real-time standpoint I will have to learn how to account for that.
Thanks for the post. Very helpfull on a lot of fronts.

My point is that I don't have to pull lead. I am flying my plane across the circle to a point where only a roll is necessary if at all. You are not able to detect the "angle" of lead. You can see pure lead pursuit but it is hard to detect an "angle" of convergence between your plane and theres. Lag might be a cause but most likly its not. Its more about the angle of the dangle. Getting shot like you describe is due to seperation. If you reduce this quickly you can control the fight. Instead of trying to deny guns like you describe try making a stalling reversal under the nose. That will work much better. Any time you can hide your intentions is the time to do it.

[Ghosth]

http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/lag/lag.htm

"# Defense - Keep in mind that, on your opponent's front-end, he is a bit ahead of where you see him and and you are a bit behind where you see yourself. If your opponent can hit what he sees, you will take damage.
Think about preventing him from being able to shoot that target sleeve you are towing behind you!"

How much farther around the circle he is will depend on the lag between you.  But accept that he's farther around to getting guns on you than he looks.

[Anaxogoras]

My point is that I don't have to pull lead. I am flying my plane across the circle to a point where only a roll is necessary if at all. You are not able to detect the "angle" of lead. You can see pure lead pursuit but it is hard to detect an "angle" of convergence between your plane and theres. Lag might be a cause but most likly its not. Its more about the angle of the dangle. Getting shot like you describe is due to seperation. If you reduce this quickly you can control the fight. Instead of trying to deny guns like you describe try making a stalling reversal under the nose. That will work much better. Any time you can hide your intentions is the time to do it.

I know the exact kind of shot you're talking about here, but from the victim's perspective (and I know this from experience), it does not have the appearance of having been "impossible" in the way the OP describes a turn-fight guns solution (which you'd imagine between two Spitfires).  Rather, the victim sees himself travel in front of your nose and is only in this situation because he believes it's a very low probability shot, and you will fail to score critical damage.  Notice I say "believes."

[Vinkman]

http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/lag/lag.htm

Reading this was very helpfu. Question: Are hits on planes ONLY calculated on the Shooters computer, or do the computers bullets travel via internet to the targets computer, and do hits register there too?